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New En passant
No, re the Aryan NRA brotherhood quip - it's simply that a lot of lunatic fringe also imagines NRA is on the 'right' side - and just needs a little help.. from Them. Kinda hard to shoo away that friendly puppy with the ammonium nitrate keg on its collar. Not NRA's fault entirely - who coopts the name. But my quip could suggest - what you infer. OK: The North Dakota Aryan NRA-wannabe Posse Comitatus Marching Band then..

My sources are not just the talking heads either - but for the fortress mentation which NRA believes is necessary for them? - so Are the speeches often too close to the tired shibboleths, to ever evoke interest in the less polarizing activities you mention.

Still and all.."Like they were a major force in the "three strikes" sort of laws. that they have no sympathy for felons using weapons..." <<<<

I see this as no + at all, given the intent and actuality of the provisions passed: leaving judges no choice in tailoring the punishment to fit an Individual - his/her crime, previous performance, circumstances. Imagine: a judge in tears! apologizing to a young defendant he must impose a Draconian punisment upon because HE HAS NO CHOICE. And Muricans tolerate THIS !!! Baa Baa Baa == always choose the Simplistic over the merely Difficult but Necessary solution.

And if enough people imagine that judges are lenient? too lenient always? on this Particular case Ihappentohaveanopinion on? 'The Answer' (there is NO 'The Answer' EVER) is NOT to (very likely unconstitutionally = coopting via legislative branch!) REMOVE Judicial branch powers to er 'judge'. Perhaps there needs further ground for removing the aberrant extremist judges, as with the quacks perennially protected by the AMA (?) Maybe that isn't broken at all.

But we can't just bump Every judgment call up to a committee, or settle the problem of 'crime' by simplistic slogans like 3 Strikes. Even though that is the national style re all difficult topics.

(Remember: "3--Strikes" gained its largest momentum via the Polly Klass kidnap, prolly rape & certainly murder - by a recently released scum of the earth. This happened in my back yard. Via the accident of human frailty and poor cop-communications: a cop actually stopped this perp while the girl was left "up a hill" [Why Did She Not Then Scream? we will never learn]. It was a traumatic event, intensified for her being such a wonderful little girl (so.. are they all, of course - but some are more..) And it led directly to this nationwide hysteria justifying the crippling of the Judiciary in every state. I Vas Dere, Charlie. The place where they Almost saved the kid - is less than ~ 4 miles away.)

The entire idea - NRA support of 3-Strikes - merely bolsters my characterization of the NRA (too) as falling for just as mindless, simplistic 'solutions' -- as are ever popular with opportunistic pols and with people who have no sense of what individual rights might be. Or why we should care.

We won't 'get rid of the guns' and - we won't 'get rid of the criminals' via 3-Strikes: We Will and Are - locking up people for insane sentences (30-40 YEARS!) for ingesting 'illegal' substances in the privacy of their homes *(not cars, airplanes or boats). we are simply fucking hysterical about so-called illegal drugs. Evidence? lots. One - you cannot even use heroin in a Brompton cocktail for terminal cancer pain . Here! Despite it's being the most effective base ingredient known. UK uses the real thing - we settle for pharm-chem one-note-johnny single alkaloid derivatives (Heroin like Coca is a vast mixture of minor alkoloid variants).

* Yes, not only drug dealers - whom we imagine it's OK to savage out of all proportion: individual users caught with maybe a couple weeks' supply - on the rubric of.. "well, they Might want to use some and sell the rest".. That flies with DAs looking for Perfect Records to taut to the pols. Over and over. Pure sophistry institutionalized *now*.

Apparently - more than you do - I see a tissue of hypocritical laws around, drugs being the most overt: we are the largest assemblage of daily drug-users in history. Only the Pharm-Chem tax renders some street drug (same alkaloid with a twist) - OK for mom n' pop. I also see the clear thread of Puritanism behind most of our victimless crimes, from prostitution on. All my life I've observed this thread of 'causality'.

We are a nation of busybodies - believe we have the right to control behavior that some plurality deems.. immoral. That is how we act, though sanctimoniously deny that we do. (Somehow I imagine this last.. is a plank in the NRA framework too ?? Right to be fucking *Left Alone* ??)

The guns just let minor disagreements turn instantly into fatal ones - often played out by 13-year olds who wanna rap like that gangsta. (CD sold by that Mega-Corp which cares-Not what they do for $$ Nor doe we appear able to interfere with Any profit-making scam so long as: please to call it bizness. Then it is on hallowed ground and untouchable - the Murican Capitalist Creed, sub-\ufffd III)

Welcome to Bedlam USA. We'll sell Anything to kids. If there's $$ in it. For me. Is that the root of our idiocy: Puerile Mendacity In All Things in Life? No more simplistic a slogan than other Popular ones, I deem.



Ashton
Once ashamed of ~'my country's behavior' internally & externally.
Now: it ain't My country. Accidentally here, I try to live - even though 'here'.
New I believe your anger is misplaced.
The entire idea - NRA support of 3-Strikes - merely bolsters my characterization of the NRA (too) as falling for just as mindless, simplistic 'solutions' -- as are ever popular with opportunistic pols and with people who have no sense of what individual rights might be.

Wait. One of the very very few organizations who are willing to stand up FOR your rights - one of the most important, as envisioned by the writers of the constitution, enumerated.... and they're for eroding individual rights?

Ash, seems to me that the pot is calling the kettle black here, when you paint the NRA as some sort of idiot organization. (And they can't win with you, especially since you've decided to ignore everything but preconceptions).

The support of three strikes was done because we do have a problem with crime. And since it turns out that something like 80% of violent crimes are committed by the SAME PEOPLE, the solution, simplistic as it might be, was "OK, we'll give you 3 strikes. If you get convicted three times of violent crimes, you don't get a chance to hurt anybody else".

And I *like* this overall concept. Its a simple system. Its fairly immune to abuse (it would be hard to imagine someone convicted falsely three times) (Note for those outside the US, (usually) its not three violent convictions (say, at the same trial), but three seperate trials).

I prefer systems that are simple, have margins for error, and aren't politically influenced.

we are simply fucking hysterical about so-called illegal drugs.

Often, we are. But this isn't really relevant to the NRA. Remember, the issue I'm trying to point out to you is you've taken a "snapshot" of the NRA, *based on the media's reports*, and its not a "true" picture. They're not advocating a lot of what you ascribe to them.

it's simply that a lot of lunatic fringe also imagines NRA is on the 'right' side

Why aren't they? I think they are. I think the ACLU is, with the exception of being embarressed of the 2nd amendment, and doing massive tap-dancing to avoid the support of it, that they give the 1st and 4th, etc.

What's "wrong" about the NRA? Their insistance on *your* civil liberties, their concern about encraaching government, their fighting with the belief that once you start allowing the government in, you won't get them out?

My sources are not just the talking heads either - but for the fortress mentation which NRA believes is necessary for them?

I have to question you on this... considering you're stating as fact the mistruths those talking heads persist in.

I might can agree with you its a fortress mentality. Just a couple weeks ago you had one, as well, when we discussed police monitoring of public places via cameras.

I see this as no + at all, given the intent and actuality of the provisions passed: leaving judges no choice in tailoring the punishment to fit an Individual - his/her crime, previous performance, circumstances.

First off, it also prevents either a judge from letting a violent felon walk.

Secondly, the whole point is with "3 strikes" is that there's BEEN CONSIDERATION in the past. It didn't work. I have no problems with violent felons being tossed into jail to rot after some number of attempts to teach/rehabilitate them.

They see you and me as prey, Ash. They see your Eden as a lush garden to rape, and take everything. But they do exist.

(and if you're talking about drug offenses, that's another story. I'm talking about the murders, rapists, violent felons. I don't have a problem presuming they can reform. But *at some point* you have to say - YOU! OUTTA THE POOL! NOW!)

Every judgment call up to a committee, or settle the problem of 'crime' by simplistic slogans like 3 Strikes. Even though that is the national style re all difficult topics.

I agree. You may notice that that's what raised my ire - that the president of the AMA decided that "guns are bad" - against all supporting documentation - and wants them outlawed. (One presumes, except for the ones protecting HIM).

(3 strikes might be a "simplistic" view - but note that it gets the point across... Picking battles is important, and if people aren't listeng to the facts...)

And *my* problem with this sort of "oversimplifcation" got you ranting and raving about the NRA - with a vastly over-simplified view of them.

Ironic, don'tcha think? :)

Addison
New camels nose under the tent :)
two bad felonies 20 yrs in prison then a shoplifting charge, 3 strikes, now I have a shoplifter out on bail ready to kill to avoid spending the rest of his life in prison. OOPS. Should I be able to own a working Tank with all arms working? Yup. Until I have my 1st felony conviction (with violence) then I lose all right to own anything above a pellet gun. Simple, easy to enforce (but I need those instant checks with the fbi fsckers destroyng the checks under 3rd party non governmental oversight after 90 days.)
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
     LP Release: Doctors &amp;amp;amp; Guns - (Fearless Freep) - (46)
         Ain't that the truth. -NT - (bepatient)
         Funny how.. - (Ashton) - (11)
             Maybe I missed the joke. - (addison) - (10)
                 Er.. 'victims' Meant: of the non-policed MDs - (Ashton) - (9)
                     Noise levels - (mhuber) - (7)
                         Or maybe... Conspiracy!! to off gun-owners! - (Ashton) - (6)
                             When you say it like that.... - (addison) - (5)
                                 It's called______satire. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                     Believe me, I understand satire. - (addison) - (3)
                                         A couple of points - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                             Why restrict to wheeled projectiles? - (Ashton)
                                             I rode that - (drewk)
                     Its a contextual issue. - (addison)
         The IoM report is here. - (Another Scott) - (1)
             Re: Nurses giving the wrong meds - (drewk)
         Reply from the DSGL - (addison) - (30)
             Swell.. yawn. But you still don't get the irony? - (Ashton) - (29)
                 Yes, I *get* the irony. The Irony is that you don't. :) - (addison) - (28)
                     Polarization is so easy. Thus popular. - (Ashton) - (27)
                         Sorry, but that's not consistent - (drewk) - (5)
                             Downward spiral? - (Ashton) - (3)
                                 But which is the "reasonable" fear? - (drewk) - (2)
                                     Re: But which is the "reasonable" fear? - (addison) - (1)
                                         Heh.. find self in basic agreement with Both of you,here:-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton)
                             Except... - (addison)
                         Which has nothing at all to do with this subject. - (addison) - (20)
                             While it all 'has to do with this subject' - our filters - (Ashton) - (11)
                                 No, Ash, it doesn't. - (addison)
                                 Let us parse, despite the 90\ufffd polaroid filter pair: - (Ashton) - (9)
                                     180 Degrees apart. - (addison) - (3)
                                         Uhh... - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                             yup, dont see many fist fights - (boxley)
                                             Re: Uhh... - (addison)
                                     Well Addison, you make your points here well enough that, - (Ashton) - (4)
                                         Thank you. Let me try to make at least one more. - (addison) - (3)
                                             En passant - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                 I believe your anger is misplaced. - (addison) - (1)
                                                     camels nose under the tent :) - (boxley)
                             Could be, but I doubt it. - (CRConrad) - (7)
                                 Its not fear. - (addison) - (6)
                                     A couple of points... - (CRConrad) - (5)
                                         The irony continues. :) - (addison) - (4)
                                             Oh, bullshit. - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                 No. - (addison) - (2)
                                                     OK.. is it alright to change the scale, now? - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                         Precis: - (pwhysall)

Involved in a bizarre electrolysis accident.
85 ms