Great post, Chris... a few questions?

Post #170,511 by Nightowl 8/20/04 10:38:19 PM Reply	Great post, Chris... a few questions? ...your words read more like one that did give a fuck at one time, and feel betrayed. First question: if someone feels like the above statement, is that unfair to the betrayer? Especially if the someone considered the betrayer to be a true friend? Second question: And when is it okay to stop making the effort to help or be a friend? Is it ever an acceptable choice if one decides to give up on the "cause" as it were, because they are frustrated and out of answers? And Last Question: Would you look down on someone who came to that conclusion that they needed to give up and stop making the effort for someone because they feel they are just getting nowhere? Or do you think they should persevere to be there for the person in question instead of abandoning them? I would really appreciate your insight on these, as you seem to have a really good view of things. Thanks Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Post #170,515 by ChrisR 8/20/04 11:30:21 PM Reply	Wish I knew the answers Living in quarters with a couple of manic-depressives, it would come in quite handy. :-) First question: if someone feels like the above statement, is that unfair to the betrayer? Especially if the someone considered the betrayer to be a true friend? Well, if we're gonna discuss personal things, I might as well discuss my own situation, with which I'm a tad more familiar. The feeling of betrayal is based upon expectations. If one feels that one's sympathies and actions are beyond futile, that's one thing. But the feeling that the object of one's affections is purposely being squandered, then that's where betrayal enters the picture. Either way, it has to do with the expectations of the person feeling betrayed, rather than the person of derision. Manic-Depressives, at least the one's I'm intimate with, have their good episodes and their bad episodes. From a family perspective, you have no choice but to put up with bad, hoping for better days. I judge them not on their current attitude or behavior, but rather weigh it over the long term. There's not a magic bullet that says they are gonna be cured and it will all be smooth sailing from here on out. Anyhow, if you have to deal with the problem in an immediate sense, you have to try to get perspective. Otherwise, you end up being infected as well. When it's not family, this can be rather difficult, as you clearly wonder whether this shit is really worth it. Second question: And when is it okay to stop making the effort to help or be a friend? Is it ever an acceptable choice if one decides to give up on the "cause" as it were, because they are frustrated and out of answers? I suppose you could go with the touchy feely crap, and hold that a friend always accepts the befriended, for better or worse. Problem is that few friendships can take the natural strain. Best you can do is channel towards the positive, but realize that you're not a savior. Also have to realize that sometimes interspersing yourself into the situation with helpful hints can actually excerbate the problem. Would never abandon a family member, but neither do I think that I have the answer to making the person instantly turnaround with a positive outlook on life. Much like the hippocratic oath, the first answer to any such question is: Don't do anything that can cause the problem to be worse. You have to measure your response and realize that in both the manic and depressive states, we are not necessarily dealing with rational and coherent behavior. Doesn't mean that you abanadon the effort, but it does mean that you have to measure your response such that it doesn't worsen the plight. And Last Question: Would you look down on someone who came to that conclusion that they needed to give up and stop making the effort for someone because they feel they are just getting nowhere? Or do you think they should persevere to be there for the person in question instead of abandoning them? Perseverance is definitely the more compassionate approach, but you also have to worry about becoming part of the problem rather than the solution - either a crutch or part of a persecution complex. If proceeding, then you damn well better have the patience to last it out. Otherwise, you just become another casualty on the road. * Not that any of what I'm saying is particularly prophetic. Sometimes you just have to step back from the situation and recharge your batteries and set your expectations accordingly. Unfortunately, there ain't a damn formula for working with dysfunctional behavior. What works on one person, just makes matters worse on others. Trial and error is about the only method of debugging the program, and oddly what errors in one bout will succeed in another (and vice versa). ** And for the real answers to these questions, I'd have to be somewhere between my second and third beer - the professorial stage. Mind you, that stretch of time is sometimes but a blink of an eye, and it also happens to be when I could be a PGA Golfer. :-)
Post #170,517 by Nightowl 8/20/04 11:47:42 PM Reply	That makes two of us :) The feeling of betrayal is based upon expectations. If one feels that one's sympathies and actions are beyond futile, that's one thing. But the feeling that the object of one's affections is purposely being squandered, then that's where betrayal enters the picture. I'm a little confused on the above sentence, can you help me clarify it? I would assume that "ones sympathies and actions are beyond futile" would mean that nothing I do can affect the situation anymore, is that correct? But I'm a little lost on the last part. I always thought the object of one's affections was someone someone loved, so how does it get used in this sentence? Do you mean that the "object" of the betrayer is to "use" (squander) or otherwise manipulate the person feeling betrayed? Please clarify that one sentence? I really want to understand what you said here. When it's not family, this can be rather difficult, as you clearly wonder whether this shit is really worth it. That's my problem, that's almost where I am. Second question: And when is it okay to stop making the effort to help or be a friend? Is it ever an acceptable choice if one decides to give up on the "cause" as it were, because they are frustrated and out of answers? I suppose you could go with the touchy feely crap, and hold that a friend always accepts the befriended, for better or worse. Problem is that few friendships can take the natural strain. Best you can do is channel towards the positive, but realize that you're not a savior. Also have to realize that sometimes interspersing yourself into the situation with helpful hints can actually excerbate the problem. Would never abandon a family member, but neither do I think that I have the answer to making the person instantly turnaround with a positive outlook on life. I rarely abandon friends, it takes a lot to push me away, but sometimes you have to abandon someone (have done so in the past) when they are truly causing you more harm than good by your association with them. That is what I'm trying to weigh here... whether it's worth it to keep up the struggle. And I also do not believe I have any answers to their problems, I just try to be by their side, or behind them, (in many cases, not just the current one), and help as much as I can if it's feasible to continue to do. I just don't know when you decide it is no longer feasible. I guess that's just a gut feeling. Much like the hippocratic oath, the first answer to any such question is: Don't do anything that can cause the problem to be worse. You have to measure your response and realize that in both the manic and depressive states, we are not necessarily dealing with rational and coherent behavior. Doesn't mean that you abanadon the effort, but it does mean that you have to measure your response such that it doesn't worsen the plight. That's the other problem. If I do what I feel I might need to do to take care of me, then sometimes it winds up "persecuting" the person in question. That only serves to enforce their persecuted complex or what have you.... so it's a hard call, take care of you, or worry about how it will affect the other person. (sigh) Perseverance is definitely the more compassionate approach, but you also have to worry about becoming part of the problem rather than the solution - either a crutch or part of a persecution complex. If proceeding, then you damn well better have the patience to last it out. Otherwise, you just become another casualty on the road. That's the other problem. I don't always KNOW if I'm part of the problem, which is sometimes why I decide maybe I should step back from it. And I have to be honest, I'm almost out of patience. (sigh) At any rate, you've given me a lot to think about, and I really do appreciate your response to my questions. I think I just have to decide for myself which course to take... just wish it wasn't such a hard decision. Thanks Chris, you helped more than you know. Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Post #170,527 by ChrisR 8/21/04 12:50:19 AM Reply	Conscience is a tricky bugger I would assume that "ones sympathies and actions are beyond futile" would mean that nothing I do can affect the situation anymore, is that correct? In more scientific terms: You're damned if do, and damned if you don't. But I'm a little lost on the last part. I always thought the object of one's affections was someone someone loved, so how does it get used in this sentence? Do you mean that the "object" of the betrayer is to "use" (squander) or otherwise manipulate the person feeling betrayed? Betrayal implies a sort of malice. In the current context, I'd consider the person betrayed cared at some point (Love is too loaded a word) and that a gift of dedication, time or resources was provided. The feeling of betrayal comes into play when one thinks that the gift is intentionally squandered (i.e. malice is involved). Manipulation can be a common facet of how that scenario plays out (but is only one of many possibilities). In order to feel betrayed, there must have been an investment (real or imagined) made at one time or another. That's my problem, that's almost where I am. Well then, the immediate problem is not the dysfunctional behavior, but rather it dwells within your conscience. Dealing with the problem from that perspective is a bit more rational, as your course of action is perhaps the one thing you have control over. I rarely abandon friends, it takes a lot to push me away, but sometimes you have to abandon someone (have done so in the past) when they are truly causing you more harm than good by your association with them. That is what I'm trying to weigh here... whether it's worth it to keep up the struggle. If you love it, set it free. If it comes back, then it's open hunting season. :-) Just to play out another scenario, I'd also like to remind that depending on the person making the decision, it can play out differently on a temporal basis. Let's say one had a sister-in-law that was married to a worthless piece of shit, that hadn't held a job for more than a couple of months time over a 20 year period of time. Worthless individual has no inkling of ambition or responsibility, not even being able to act as a child care provider, wasting away drinking beer, doing drugs, and watching the zombie tube. Let's say said person takes a bat and beats the spouse black and blue on the face. Well, most rational people would permanently remove themself from said abuse, and sister-in-law moved five states away and vowed to never have anything to do with said individual again. Well, it was easy to guess what happened within 6 months time - they were back together. Move forward in time. Said individual leaves crystal meth and needles lying on the dinning room table, with toddlers of 2 and 3 running around the house. Again, he gets the final boot. Within a week, he shows up with a broken jaw, as some drug deal had gone bad, and he had the ever living shit beat out of him. She takes him back and nurtures him to health. Wind forward to more recent. Said individual is high as a kite on the 3 year olds birthday, and threatens mother and family with a knife. Kids go nuts and hide in the closet while mom calls the police to escort worthless dad away for 3 months at county. Mother vows to never, ever, ever allow him anywhere near the vicinity. We recommend a restraining order - siggestion goes unheeded. Roll forward to today. He's back. I fucking can't believe such stupidity. What's the moral of this story. I don't know other than final ultimatims are only as final as the person giving the ultimatum. And given where we're at, at the current time, they were worthless and probably contributed in a cause-effect way over the long term. Anyhow, just as you have to view help from a long-term perspective, the decision to not help should also be made over a long haul, not waffling back and forth. * Ok, enuf of this personal advice. Anyone that takes my advice should probably have their fucking head examined (well, we do have to try to feign staying on topic in this quarantine). And anyone that's just rolling their eyes, hoping to be spared this thread - well - I love you too. :-)
Post #170,529 by Nightowl 8/21/04 1:31:24 AM Reply	Thanks That clarifies it really well. I would have moved this out of the Flame Forum, hehe, but I had no idea where it would go if I had.... Hmmmm obligatory flame..... I'm not really good at those.... Besides, isn't being kind to your enemy the equivalent of heaping burning coals on their heads? Hehee! There's my flame, burning coals! Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Post #170,534 by boxley 8/21/04 9:17:02 AM Reply	you can be a good fucking flamer after all yer a woman, just bring up the obligatory LOSER, GET A FUCKING REAL JOB SO I CAN BUY SOME DECENT (insert object of desire here) YOUR FUCKING FAMILY, YOUR BROTHER GIVES BETTER HEAD. see its easy. :-) thanx, bill These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #170,544 by Nightowl 8/21/04 11:02:35 AM Reply	Oh sure, I can say the words Problem is, I can't put the heart into it and the meaning behind it, because I'm just too damn nice and considerate. ;) It just ain't me. Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Post #170,536 by Another Scott 8/21/04 9:55:22 AM Reply	Some people always find a way to make the wrong choice. It's oh so very painful to watch. Been there. :-( I feel for you, Chris. In my mother's case, her worst problem was managing money. (And she remarried a worthless slug of a person, but we shan't go there. ;-) The only way to keep her from mismanaging her finances was to make the decisions for her, or more accurately, prevent her from making financial decisions. After her stroke she ended up in a nursing home, so that part of her pathology finally was put under control. It's my experience that adults rarely change personality traits or pathologies. It takes some sort of major event to get people to change (myself included), and even then it's easy to revert back to the previous trait or behavior. We're all creatures of habit. It's easy to see a solution from a distance, but unfortunately, it's often impractical to implement it. In the abstract, someone needs to babysit said SIL and make sure she doesn't make the wrong decisions wrt said WPoS. That, in the abstract, means someone needs to take her and her children in. But I'm sure that's impossible and I'm sure that she wouldn't accept that anyway. That's the solution I tried with my mother. It lasted less than 2 years and the stress damaged my relationship with her (even more). And in the end, it only delayed her spiral down for a while. So even if one sees the solution, and tries ones best to implement it, there's only so much a person can do to help someone else. Ultimately, personal responsibility is the most important thing. If it's not there, moving Heaven and Earth won't help. Sometimes support group discussions can help the person, but too often they're impractical to attend. :-( Hang in there. And best of luck to said SIL and her little ones. Remember, we don't get to pick our relatives. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #170,545 by Nightowl 8/21/04 11:06:22 AM Reply	No Kidding, Scott... I'm sorry about your SIL too, Chris. It's so hard to watch people continue to put themselves in the same situations over and over. In my mother's case, her worst problem was managing money. (And she remarried a worthless slug of a person, but we shan't go there. ;-) The only way to keep her from mismanaging her finances was to make the decisions for her, or more accurately, prevent her from making financial decisions. After her stroke she ended up in a nursing home, so that part of her pathology finally was put under control. Reminds me of when a friend and I took another friend under our "management" and tried to help him manage his money... it failed completely, and ended with the IRS and the Police both coming to our doors. Fortunately we got out of the liability of it, but I had to ultimately abandon said friend who was causing all the problems.... even though I promise his mother on her death-bed I would look after her son.. Yeah right... some people just can't and won't help themselves, and trying to help them just gets you ensnared in their messes. Stupid SOB finally left town with police warrants out everywhere... hope he never comes back. Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer

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