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New Very well so
except we have to pick which countries to invade, and how do we decide? We decided by intelligence that was later proven to be false. PM Blair in your country also agreed to the Iraq invasion, based on intelligence that they gathered as well.

North Korea and Myanmar, while I agree with you are evil, have no apparent ties to Al-Queda that we know of. A memo was found that linked Saddam to Al-Quada, and they had people meet. While we can argue over the credibility of the memo and what Saddam's and Bin Laden's people talked about, it does show a possible link. Saddam was also linked to terrorism, and remember this is a war on terrorism. True other countries in the middle-eat may be tied to terrorism as well, but Saddam has a past history of using WoMD on his own people (1990's?) unlike the other countries.

Still, will there be an invasion of North Korea and Myanmar or other parts of the world? Who knows. I can grant you one thing, whatever the next war is, or whatever the government claims it will be for, there will always be people against it.



"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift




[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
New Wrong Answer
We do NOT need to choose what countries to invade. We SHOULD NOT invade anyone unless attacked. Iraq did NOT attack. Could NOT attack. Had NO plans to attack.

A "War" on terrorism is just as effective as the "War" on drugs or the "War" on illiteracy. First two are POLICE actions, last is social policy. No troops needed for any of them.

Military power should be used to DEFEND against an attack. And no, were not playing a sports game where a good defense is a strong offense.

Saddam may have been an evil dictator, but we had no justification for invading.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New Right answer
We have power, and with that power comes responsibility. We should no longer support tinpot dictators, and instead support freedom and rights. Invading Iraq just cleaned up a big mess that we were responsible for. Or maybe you think we shouldn't take responsibility for the mistakes we made in the past? Saddam should have been taken out of power in 1991 by Bush Sr., but he made a mistake. I see it as no different than cutting out a growing cancer. The war is justified, Iraqi people are free, and that is one less mess to worry about growing out of control later. I imagine if we invaded Germany in 1939 to avoid the holocost and World War II that you would have been just as upset? Germany didn't attack us, why did we attack them? Learn how war works and quit being an Armchair General.

You and JB4 are the ones that need a clue by four.



"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift




[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
New Lifted 700 Club slogans do not a Statesman make.
Pretty soon your recognition-vocabulary + spell-checker will enable you to quote extensively, the predigested slogans from a number of "unbiased" blogs, born-again and-again. (You get a C+ for remembering the spell-check, this time)

There's another phrase which describes your toddler's-eye view of "the Iraq thing", in this inane encapsulation
The war is justified, Iraqi people are free, and that is one less mess to worry about growing out of control later.
It's a common shorthand for those Yahoos who imagine that the US can and should control whatever it wishes to control, always. That phrase describes the Murican Instant-Solution to any difficult problem which is too hard to actually think about, let alone take the time actually needed to begin solving:

Flush it down the toilet. See? - problem all gone.

Stick to The Office, Norman. (Maybe HR - they adore simple rules to govern complex people, too) Your Boolean logic is invalid beyond VB-class, and away from The Office: that level of thought turns ludicrous fast.


Ludicrous:
Laughable or hilarious because of obvious absurdity or incongruity. See Synonyms at [link|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=foolish| foolish].
New Yet you error again
we are not controlling Iraq anymore, we've set up their own intern government and paid for education to help them learn to run it and rebuild their civilization. It is not about control, it is not about oil either, if it was we simply would have annexed Iraq as a territory as we did Gaum. Thus your fallacies are showing again.

You get a C- for effort, but an F- for concepts.



"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift




[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
New So why, then,...
..are we shipping ever more troops to a country "we no longer control"? (As if we ever did control it....)

Doesn't sound like their "interim government" is all that much, does it?

(The rest of you post fell below the noise filter threshold)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Responsibility?
That's a good one.

So, what's Bush doing about Darfur? Is that the sound of crickets?

When is Bush going to apologize to the world for the excesses of former presidents in abusing human rights around the world? That's right, more crickets.

Invade Germany in '39? Sure, I'd have been all for it. While we were at it, we should have taken out Stalin, who killed more of his own people than Hitler ever dreamed he'd be able to. Difference is, Mr. Hussein was not a threat, NOR WAS IT EVEN REMOTELY POSSIBLE that he could become a threat on the level that Hitler and Stalin posed to the world. Only intelligence sources that were massaged and pipelined to specifically fit the case of invading Iraq were used in generating the case for war with Iraq - and now Bush has the gall to blame the intelligence services FOR DOING WHAT HE DEMANDED OF THEM.

Son, you've drunk the kool-aid. Now kindly shut up and let the adults deal with things.
WANTED: Precognitive Telepath for adventuring Partnership. You know where to apply.
New Yeah sure
not a threat, that is why he had caches of suicide vests and maps of US cities. That is why he gave shelter and protection to Al-Queda members who murdered US citizens in other middle-east countries, and allowed them to recruit his own people. That is why, after 9/11 happened, that he cheered it on, and called for more strikes against the US. That is why his followers danced in the streets on 9/11/01 shouting "Allah Akbar" and wanted to see more attacks on the US. That is why those same Al-Queda members are leading a resistance against US forces since the invasion of Iraq. They are there, and always have been, since Saddam helped them out and supported their leader's attacks on the US and encouraged more to happen. I guess if you ingore that evidence, he was no threat?

We can only do so many invasions at a time, and have to give priority. Darfur can wait, yet I see no other nations helping them out. That is why the US has to do what it can, as no other nation cares enough.

If Bush won't apologize for the excesses of former presidents in abusing human rights around the world, then I will. I apologize for the excesses of former presidents in abusing human rights around the world. Apparently more invasions are in order to straighten out the messes we caused. Everyone take a number. I think Iran may be next. An invasion is a small price to pay for the value one places on having freedoms and rights. Draft me into the military, and I'll go into whatever hellhole and deliver sweet-release from this cruel world to anyone with murder and hate in their heart, because I love them and do not want to see them suffer anymore.



"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift




[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
New Norm, you wouldn't last an hour.
Draft me into the military, and I'll go into whatever hellhole and deliver sweet-release from this cruel world to anyone with murder and hate in their heart, because I love them and do not want to see them suffer anymore.

Do YOU have the ability to stick a bayonet into someone's gut, pull it out and stab again to make sure he's dead. Even when the "enemy" looks the age of your younger brother? Can you shoot to kill someone who's not looking at you, but watching someone in your unit? Can you kill someone who is walk down the road, unaware of your presence just because he's wearing the wrong uniform?

Norm, you know nothing about war, nothing about combat, and little about politics. When you discuss computers, you're a good read, but this thread you should just drop.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New All I know about war I learned in comic books...
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New And that makes Iraq different from Saudi Arabia how?
Saudi Arabia gave material support to the 9/11 hijackers, in the form of finances and personnel, to a much larger extent than Mr. Hussein ever did.

Yet they remain our allies.

When we invaded Afghanistan, the Taliban fled to neigbhoring Pakistan, which has only reluctantly made token efforts to shut them down. There are still reports of collusion within Pakistan's military and intelligence services with the Al-Quaeda forces.

Yet they remain our allies.

Mr. Hussein had contact with Al-Quaeda, no question there. However, a LOT of middle eastern leaders had contact with Al-Quaeda - and Mr. Hussein was a convenient punching bag for the United States.

Bush manipulated the intel, and you are deluding yourself if you believe otherwise. The evidence is there, it's been argued to death, and the conclusion is simple: Bush invaded Iraq for his own personal gain, not to secure the U.S. against further attacks.
WANTED: Precognitive Telepath for adventuring Partnership. You know where to apply.
New So volunteer already.
Go Marines. [link|http://www.forcerecon.com/|Force Recon.] Stop whining.
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
New I've forgotten more about war than you've ever known.
Lest you forget, I'm retired military. Went into the Army in '72. Can you say Vietnam? How about 7 day war? Gulf war I?

Why WWII?
Beautiful spies sleeping with high government officials, money laundering, doctored photos along with a complex British plot to involve the United States in a world war. Sounds like a B movie.

Thomas E. Mahl says it's history.

Mahl, who teaches history at Lorain County Community College in Elyria, has just published "Desperate Deception: British Covert Operations in the United States, 1939-44" (Brassey's). In it, he details a labyrinth of British counter-intelligence operations aimed at pushing this country into joining the European struggle against the Axis powers in World War II.
...
[link|http://www.sunnews.com/news/1998/1217/wspyplot.htm|Sun News]
or
The book's thesis is that British and U.S. "elites" maneuvered us into WWII to serve the interests of the State. The corrupt Churchill and FDR and their respective intelligence agencies blindfolded the American public into believing that U.S. entrance into the war was justifiable on moral and political grounds.

As usual, the docile masses were swept away in all the rhetoric. Every attempt was made to smear the isolationists as Hitleresque and un-American. More often than not, with such media rhetoricians as Walter Lippman, the attempts were successful. Even today, the uneducated public is convinced that the Old Right, anti-interventionist movement was Communist!
[link|http://www.karendecoster.com/blog/archives/000980.html|Karen DeCoster]
or
On December 7, 1941, while German armies were freezing before Moscow, Japan suddenly pushed the United States into the struggle by attacking the American naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Four days later Hitler declared war on the United States. President Roosevelt called on Congress for immediate and massive expansion of the armed forces. Twenty years of neglect and indifference, however, could not be overcome in a few days.
[link|http://www.worldwariihistory.info/WWII/United-States.html|WWII History]

GIYF if you want more reasons why we fought WWII.

ANything else you wish to know about war?
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New Did you really get a beer ration? :)
-drl
New What is the sound of a clue-by-4 hitting Norm's brain?
Much the same as the sound of one hand clapping, for much the same reason!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

     Chicago "Oklahoma City" type plot thwarted! - (Nightowl) - (84)
         Re: Chicago "Oklahoma City" type plot thwarted! - (deSitter) - (83)
             Virgin . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
             Sorry, must disagree - (Nightowl) - (81)
                 so Bush is a terrorist? -NT - (boxley) - (78)
                     Yep. Unprovoked attacks on another nation. -NT - (jbrabeck) - (47)
                         Sure why not? - (orion) - (46)
                             3 million? - (pwhysall) - (40)
                                 From Iraqi immigrants - (orion) - (39)
                                     That's close to 15% of the population -NT - (deSitter)
                                     No such thing as an unbiased source, Norman. - (pwhysall) - (37)
                                         Even if the numbers are wrong - (orion) - (36)
                                             Yes we should - (lincoln) - (5)
                                                 I think the problem here - (Nightowl) - (4)
                                                     So N. Korea is justified in attacking the USA? - (lincoln) - (3)
                                                         we have been at war with them since 1950's - (boxley) - (2)
                                                             Technically that was not a war on our side -NT - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                 OTOH, isn't signing a truce=retroactively declaring war? :-) -NT - (CRConrad)
                                             The problem with that reasoning... - (pwhysall) - (17)
                                                 I agree, but the USA is remarkably incompetent about it - (ben_tilly)
                                                 Zimbabwe cannot be invaded by us, the UK screwed that pooch - (boxley)
                                                 Very well so - (orion) - (14)
                                                     Wrong Answer - (jbrabeck) - (12)
                                                         Right answer - (orion) - (11)
                                                             Lifted 700 Club slogans do not a Statesman make. - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                 Yet you error again - (orion) - (1)
                                                                     So why, then,... - (jb4)
                                                             Responsibility? - (inthane-chan) - (5)
                                                                 Yeah sure - (orion) - (4)
                                                                     Norm, you wouldn't last an hour. - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                                                                         All I know about war I learned in comic books... -NT - (admin)
                                                                     And that makes Iraq different from Saudi Arabia how? - (inthane-chan)
                                                                     So volunteer already. - (Silverlock)
                                                             I've forgotten more about war than you've ever known. - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                                                                 Did you really get a beer ration? :) -NT - (deSitter)
                                                     What is the sound of a clue-by-4 hitting Norm's brain? - (jb4)
                                             OK, so what about Idi Amin? Pol Pot? Etc. etc.? - (jb4) - (11)
                                                 Learn how the system works - (orion) - (6)
                                                     Now THAT's Precious! (new thread) - (Ashton)
                                                     ** SHUN ** -NT - (jb4)
                                                     That was stupid when you said it before - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                         Your response was invalid back then - (orion) - (2)
                                                             A Masterpiece of purest digital-'think'__!!__For posterity. - (Ashton)
                                                             And this is pointless - (ben_tilly)
                                                 None of them had a - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                     None of them had much [oil] either -NT - (jb4) - (2)
                                                         Riiight. -NT - (bepatient)
                                                         or had been mean to Dad? -NT - (Ashton)
                             A war fought on false pretenses ... - (jb4) - (4)
                                 It's like saying that a rape is justified... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                     OT on rape seattle and children (new thread) - (boxley)
                                 The right war for the wrong reasons - (orion) - (1)
                                     Are you THAT fucking stoopud, Norm! (new thread) - (jb4)
                     Well... - (Nightowl) - (29)
                         In no way - (boxley) - (28)
                             Let me clarify - (Nightowl) - (26)
                                 well that makes you a terrorist as well - (boxley) - (25)
                                     That's why opinion - (Nightowl)
                                     What does that make Kerry? - (orion) - (22)
                                         Re: What does that make Kerry? - (xtensive) - (21)
                                             This is the same as the suicide bomers - (orion) - (20)
                                                 Loaded question, with a bad answer - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                                                     Well, I rather relish a French Liberation force! - (jb4)
                                                 Yes, it seems that you are fools - (Ashton) - (17)
                                                     Sorry, already planning to vote - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                         OK, you're excused. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                             Glad to clear it up. - (Nightowl)
                                                     I will still vote - (orion) - (13)
                                                         When brooks babble.. it's music. When you babble, it snot -NT - (Ashton)
                                                         Been listening to Rush again, I see... - (jb4) - (11)
                                                             I don't listen to Rush - (orion) - (10)
                                                                 No one here hates you, Norm - (rcareaga) - (2)
                                                                     Ah but you do - (orion) - (1)
                                                                         Hated? - (Silverlock)
                                                                 "Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner" - (jb4) - (6)
                                                                     Only if you believe in it - (orion) - (5)
                                                                         What I believe doesn't mean sh*t to a tree - (jb4) - (4)
                                                                             Why, that's "Eskimo Blue Day"! - (rcareaga) - (3)
                                                                                 what! no blue cheer? King Crimson? - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                     Just checked with Ernie - (rcareaga)
                                                                                 Re: Why, that's "Eskimo Blue Day"! - (jb4)
                                     Kerry and Bush are both terrorists - (Arkadiy)
                             No more quips on Boxlish from moi.. - (Ashton)
                 No - (deSitter) - (1)
                     Agree with your definition except /politician/republican -NT - (boxley)

GOPHERS, not GOLFERS!
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