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New Re: What does that make Kerry?
More likely it makes Kerry (and Co.) a dupe for being led astray by the false intelligence being proffered by the administration and its "Office of Special Plans." BushCo picked the intelligence it wanted to paint a false picture of the real situation and offered it as conclusive evidence.

Makes them terrorists _AND_ liars.

Makes Kerry a fool for believing.

thanks
mx.
"I'm man enough to tell you that I can't put my finger on
exactly what my philosophy is now, but I'm flexible."
-- Malcolm X
New This is the same as the suicide bomers
they too where mislead by intelligence from Bin Laden, and they too felt they did the right thing. The leaders under Bin Laden that helped plan the attacks, also were mislead. Yet we call these people terrorists, even though they were obviously mislead, and yet those of us who were mislead were not terrorists, mearly fools for believing.

Then I guess that makes Nightowl a fool for believing, rather than a terrorist. I too also at one time believed the inteligence, and I am a fool too. It makes most of American fools, as a majority of Americans supported the war according to surveys.

So the line between a terrorist and a fool is a very blurry one?

Do you still think that we should have left Saddam in power and never entered Iraq? If so, then you support a brutal terrorist dictator, and feel that men like him should be left alone to mismanage and misrule their own parts of the world.



"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift




[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
New Loaded question, with a bad answer
Do you still think that we should have left Saddam in power and never entered Iraq?

Yes. During the past decades the US supported his regime. We had no reason for the unprovoked attack. We ignored the brutality of his regime and supplied him with the necessary tools to BE a brutal dictator. Bad intelligence or good intelligence. Doesn't matter. We had pledged to WAIT until consenses was built. Meaning UN. Bush saw that he wasn't going to get the ok to attack, so he did it ON HIS OWN. IT WAS WRONG to attack.

If so, then you support a brutal terrorist dictator, and feel that men like him should be left alone to mismanage and misrule their own parts of the world.

Do I support Saddam, nope. But he is the ruler of his country. Does any country support Bush? Nope, but none will attack just because he is a raging lunatic bent on destroying his own country. When will any country attack to save us from Bush?

Lastly, get off the old, tired, wrong, thread that Saddam and OBL were buddies in planning. The two of them have as much in common as Tim McVeigh and Saddam. McVeigh and OBL have more in common, both attacked the US.

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New Well, I rather relish a French Liberation force!
/me puts tongue in cheeck and ducks!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Yes, it seems that you are fools
But not just in regard to applying the logic of puppy-dog sentimentality to all things - your foolishness extends to plucking a couple tired cliches, regarding some massive, intractible worldwide Problem .. doing a little Boolean IF this THEN that and announcing..

See? It's simple!

No, It Isn't Simple - but for the simplistic, everything Seems So. To you no thought ever rises above the simplistic. Misleading such as you, doesn't need a master propagandist [read Liar] like Karl Rove; some slogan from any old blog will do nicely. Til you forget what it was you thought you thought.. yesterday.

Obv you haven't paid more than a cursory glance at the machinations of this Admin since Day One; your naive questions and 'proposals' betray your near-complete ignorance of hundreds of events, reported across dozens of media. You haven't even sorted out yet: the 9/11 - Saddam Non-connection!



Do us all a long-term favor; neither you nor Owlet vote this time, OK?
Just get your Bachelors of Bizneess Maladroitness, buy a suit and go fuck up some small company.. for a while.


Simpler yet?

Gehabt Kindern
You've been Had, Children.
New Sorry, already planning to vote
But not just in regard to applying the logic of puppy-dog sentimentality to all things - your foolishness extends to plucking a couple tired cliches, regarding some massive, intractible worldwide Problem .. doing a little Boolean IF this THEN that and announcing..

See? It's simple!


I did no such thing, Ashton, all I did was break the combined argument into two question, because they are inherently different.

Most people agree with me here that it was wrong to invade Iraq on the premise that Bush gave us.

Most people also agree with me here that Saddam was a bad evil man, and the people of his country are better off without him.

I never at any point justified Bush's invasion.

Obv you haven't paid more than a cursory glance at the machinations of this Admin since Day One; your naive questions and 'proposals' betray your near-complete ignorance of hundreds of events, reported across dozens of media. You haven't even sorted out yet: the 9/11 - Saddam Non-connection!


I'm not sure what this refers to, but I've never made a 9/11 Saddam connection, not even once.

Do us all a long-term favor; neither you nor Owlet vote this time, OK?


Sorry Ashton, I'm definitely planning to vote this November, because I can't stand the thought of another four years of this.

Nightowl >8#



"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
New OK, you're excused.
It is, after all unfair to lump you two into the same comingled brain-pan {ugh}
As to
I did no such thing, Ashton, all I did was break the combined argument into two question, because they are inherently different.

Most people agree with me here that it was wrong to invade Iraq on the premise that Bush gave us.

Most people also agree with me here that Saddam was a bad evil man, and the people of his country are better off without him.

I never at any point justified Bush's invasion.


Of course, selecting these two of a myriad of Questions.. is as arbitrary as any other simple assessment always is. I doubt there is any consensus 'here' that - from moment-to-moment every day since the first death: the people of his country are better off without him.

This proposition could be approached coldly - from the estimation of Saddam-killings/month VS the present tally (then throw in US casualties for an aperitif). Or it could be approached from the guesswork of Religio-schisms: the number of sects within Iraq, each determined to wipe out the other - because Each One is Possessed-by The One True God. These were held in check by Saddam, but now they are free to inflict whatever chaos seems to feed a chance for Winner-Take-All.
(Possibly for another quarter-century?)

Could also plot the $-drain, what that means for limiting future US ability to inflict its in-house political machinations upon the world via invasion-at-will, or our ability next: even to take care of our Own infrastructure and pay off our indebtedness [to many in the world who finance our balance-of-payments annual deficit -- these Expect to be paid their Interest; some may choose to take back their Principle as well. Ugly - that]. Then too: everything we Blew Up we have to Rebuild at *Your* expense and mine. And there are several more angles-of-view one might choose re

US <--> Iraq in 8/04.

So no.. I don't believe there is consensus here (or most places) about the overall tradeoffs \ufffd of this ill-planned, deceptively packaged Neoconman Riot -- which was on the PNAC Things-To-Do list since the early '90s.

Other than these little problems - by all means help vote-out! this bunch of maniacs, while there's still, just-now a reasonable probability of elections being held in the US.


Ashton

PS - it doesn't matter what most think here, of course. Many spouses don't really know which levers their SOs actually pull .. behind that curtain. As it should be, no?
New Glad to clear it up.
And okay, I concur, there may not be a consensus about Iraq being better off without Saddam, but I think most people here believe he was a bad evil man, and shall I edit that to say that many people here probably think Iraq is better off without him.

And I'm sure we probably ALL agree that all the lives lost there by Americans and others, was more or less senseless and unneccessary, as well as sad.

PS - it doesn't matter what most think here, of course. Many spouses don't really know which levers their SOs actually pull .. behind that curtain. As it should be, no?


I agree, I only have made my position on Bush clear because it came about in other posts before now. I've learned not to let what other people think bug me all that much for the most part. :)

Have a good day, Ashton!

Nightowl >8#



"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
New I will still vote
your babbling has not convinced me of anything other than you too are a fool.

I can see that you still do not know how this country works, nor do you understand the events that happened and the results that took place. Yet I cannot tell you to not vote, because you have a right to vote wether if I agree with your views or not. That is a true difference between me and you, I support the right to vote, while you want to take away that right and other rights from people you do not agree with. I find that fact to reflect very poor on your character, and the character of others that support that view. It goes against everything that the United States stands for, and thus I find you a AntiPatriot or Hatriot. I will vote, just to spite you, because you told me not to. Yet I refuse to tell you how I will vote or who I will vote for, because I feel that information is meant to be secret.



"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift




[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
New When brooks babble.. it's music. When you babble, it snot
New Been listening to Rush again, I see...
"Hatriot"...Puh-LEEEZE!

You couldn't have made that up...so turn off Rush and try jump starting your brain again.
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New I don't listen to Rush
and you own me an apology.

Rush must have copied it from this guy:
[link|http://christdot.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3714|http://christdot.org...=article&sid=3714]

"Former Muslim, turned born-again Christian, Dr. Ergun Caner was born in Stockholm, Sweden and raised as the son of an Islamic leader. In 1982, he converted to the Christian faith. As a result, his father disowned him. But that same day, both of his brothers accepted Christ. Dr. Caner has authored eight books on Islam, and is currently a Professor of Theology and Church History at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. Recently he spoke to Lee Webb on The 700 Club to discuss his latest book, Michael Moore, and the growing phenomenon he calls 'Hatriotism.'"

Also this link:
[link|http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/News/0407012a.asp|http://www.cbn.com/C...News/0407012a.asp]

Perhaps, if you have an open mind, you will read and find out about another point of view. I look at as many points of view as I can.

One day, maybe you and others, will learn that hate is not a good thing to have. We won't win anything by using hate.



"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift




[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
New No one here hates you, Norm
Loathing, exasperation, contempt...well, them's each a whole other ball of earwax. But we don't hate you, you pathetic git.
New Ah but you do
I am, after all, the second most hated user next to Marlowe. I think I'll make an attempt at the #1 spot.

Your feeble attempts at lying are pathetic.



"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift




[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
New Hated?
You're kidding, right? Mostly we pity you.
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
New "Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner"
Or have you forgotton that already?
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Only if you believe in it
and I do not think that you do. You haven't shown me any evidence that you do. I speak out of love, not hate, but I won't hesitate to defend myself or my views or my beliefs, and I can only turn the other cheek so much before I attack back, yet the attack is out of love for a dicipline, and not hate. Yet I do believe that even people who hate me, or call me wrong, or an idiot, or try to knock down anything I have to say, still have the rights and freedoms that they should have. That is the difference between me and some others, I am often told by those here that I should not vote, as I have no right to vote. All I see are some would-be tinpot dictators who speak out of hate, and want to take away my rights because my opinions and views differ from their. I see no difference between them and Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, the KKK, and other hate groups that want to take away people's rights who have different views or opinions than theirs. I feel that taking away of rights and freedoms goes against civilized society, and goes back to Tyranny.



"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift




[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
New What I believe doesn't mean sh*t to a tree
(5 points for the first poster to correctly attribute the reference in the title.)

I'm not the one jumping up and down yelling the WASP equivalent of "Jihad" at the top of his lungs in this thread, while subserviently whining his Christian proselytism in others. Besides spouting gibberish here, you're spouting hypocricy. Which is yet another sin.

Wash your hands, little man....
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Why, that's "Eskimo Blue Day"!
You call it loud
But the human crowd
Doesn't mean shit to a tree.
—from Jefferson Airplane's exhilarating (if perhaps not artistically first-rate and, in the edition I have, at any rate, atrociously engineered CD) 1969 album Volunteers. (For what it's worth I count After Bathing at Baxters their masterpiece: the best and most authentic acid album of all times. Er, I rely on the testimony of my cousin Ernie, of course, in asserting this.)

I must say, though, that the anarchistic smash-the-state sentiments running through the work were a lot more exhilarating when I heard them ringing from the left in my late teens than they were a quarter of a century later coming from the Montana Militia and their various fellow travelers.

cordially,

Oh, and Norm—now that we've seen you in your insult-and-invective mode I exhort you, as a friend, not to quit your day job in the unlikely event you ever secure one. Your particular gifts, assuming these exist, do not include the ability to compose and convey devastating ripostes.

[edit: typo]
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Expand Edited by rcareaga Aug. 11, 2004, 11:11:18 PM EDT
New what! no blue cheer? King Crimson?
also second hand, hey might even have been Earnie if he was around Santa Monica circa 1971.
thanx,
bill
"delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Just checked with Ernie
—and he avers that while no disrespect is intended to either Blue Cheer (a plausible contender) or King Crimson (less so, though of course gifted in their way*), any acidhead who was paying attention during the specified period knows that ABaB quintessentially captures the indole alkaloid Zeitgeist.

cordially,

*I have a sentimental fondness for KC, whose In the Wake of Poseidon constituted part of the soundtrack of my abortive freshman year in 1970, but the overproduced "art rock" style they pioneered, and which began to dominate popular music until the punk rebellion, drove me away from rock for a long time thereafter.

[edit edit: repetitititition]
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Expand Edited by rcareaga Aug. 11, 2004, 11:38:35 PM EDT
Expand Edited by rcareaga Aug. 11, 2004, 11:39:10 PM EDT
New Re: Why, that's "Eskimo Blue Day"!
Ding!

I'd accuse you of Googling, but you're old enough to actually know this... ;-)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

     Chicago "Oklahoma City" type plot thwarted! - (Nightowl) - (84)
         Re: Chicago "Oklahoma City" type plot thwarted! - (deSitter) - (83)
             Virgin . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
             Sorry, must disagree - (Nightowl) - (81)
                 so Bush is a terrorist? -NT - (boxley) - (78)
                     Yep. Unprovoked attacks on another nation. -NT - (jbrabeck) - (47)
                         Sure why not? - (orion) - (46)
                             3 million? - (pwhysall) - (40)
                                 From Iraqi immigrants - (orion) - (39)
                                     That's close to 15% of the population -NT - (deSitter)
                                     No such thing as an unbiased source, Norman. - (pwhysall) - (37)
                                         Even if the numbers are wrong - (orion) - (36)
                                             Yes we should - (lincoln) - (5)
                                                 I think the problem here - (Nightowl) - (4)
                                                     So N. Korea is justified in attacking the USA? - (lincoln) - (3)
                                                         we have been at war with them since 1950's - (boxley) - (2)
                                                             Technically that was not a war on our side -NT - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                 OTOH, isn't signing a truce=retroactively declaring war? :-) -NT - (CRConrad)
                                             The problem with that reasoning... - (pwhysall) - (17)
                                                 I agree, but the USA is remarkably incompetent about it - (ben_tilly)
                                                 Zimbabwe cannot be invaded by us, the UK screwed that pooch - (boxley)
                                                 Very well so - (orion) - (14)
                                                     Wrong Answer - (jbrabeck) - (12)
                                                         Right answer - (orion) - (11)
                                                             Lifted 700 Club slogans do not a Statesman make. - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                 Yet you error again - (orion) - (1)
                                                                     So why, then,... - (jb4)
                                                             Responsibility? - (inthane-chan) - (5)
                                                                 Yeah sure - (orion) - (4)
                                                                     Norm, you wouldn't last an hour. - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                                                                         All I know about war I learned in comic books... -NT - (admin)
                                                                     And that makes Iraq different from Saudi Arabia how? - (inthane-chan)
                                                                     So volunteer already. - (Silverlock)
                                                             I've forgotten more about war than you've ever known. - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                                                                 Did you really get a beer ration? :) -NT - (deSitter)
                                                     What is the sound of a clue-by-4 hitting Norm's brain? - (jb4)
                                             OK, so what about Idi Amin? Pol Pot? Etc. etc.? - (jb4) - (11)
                                                 Learn how the system works - (orion) - (6)
                                                     Now THAT's Precious! (new thread) - (Ashton)
                                                     ** SHUN ** -NT - (jb4)
                                                     That was stupid when you said it before - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                         Your response was invalid back then - (orion) - (2)
                                                             A Masterpiece of purest digital-'think'__!!__For posterity. - (Ashton)
                                                             And this is pointless - (ben_tilly)
                                                 None of them had a - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                     None of them had much [oil] either -NT - (jb4) - (2)
                                                         Riiight. -NT - (bepatient)
                                                         or had been mean to Dad? -NT - (Ashton)
                             A war fought on false pretenses ... - (jb4) - (4)
                                 It's like saying that a rape is justified... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                     OT on rape seattle and children (new thread) - (boxley)
                                 The right war for the wrong reasons - (orion) - (1)
                                     Are you THAT fucking stoopud, Norm! (new thread) - (jb4)
                     Well... - (Nightowl) - (29)
                         In no way - (boxley) - (28)
                             Let me clarify - (Nightowl) - (26)
                                 well that makes you a terrorist as well - (boxley) - (25)
                                     That's why opinion - (Nightowl)
                                     What does that make Kerry? - (orion) - (22)
                                         Re: What does that make Kerry? - (xtensive) - (21)
                                             This is the same as the suicide bomers - (orion) - (20)
                                                 Loaded question, with a bad answer - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                                                     Well, I rather relish a French Liberation force! - (jb4)
                                                 Yes, it seems that you are fools - (Ashton) - (17)
                                                     Sorry, already planning to vote - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                         OK, you're excused. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                             Glad to clear it up. - (Nightowl)
                                                     I will still vote - (orion) - (13)
                                                         When brooks babble.. it's music. When you babble, it snot -NT - (Ashton)
                                                         Been listening to Rush again, I see... - (jb4) - (11)
                                                             I don't listen to Rush - (orion) - (10)
                                                                 No one here hates you, Norm - (rcareaga) - (2)
                                                                     Ah but you do - (orion) - (1)
                                                                         Hated? - (Silverlock)
                                                                 "Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner" - (jb4) - (6)
                                                                     Only if you believe in it - (orion) - (5)
                                                                         What I believe doesn't mean sh*t to a tree - (jb4) - (4)
                                                                             Why, that's "Eskimo Blue Day"! - (rcareaga) - (3)
                                                                                 what! no blue cheer? King Crimson? - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                     Just checked with Ernie - (rcareaga)
                                                                                 Re: Why, that's "Eskimo Blue Day"! - (jb4)
                                     Kerry and Bush are both terrorists - (Arkadiy)
                             No more quips on Boxlish from moi.. - (Ashton)
                 No - (deSitter) - (1)
                     Agree with your definition except /politician/republican -NT - (boxley)

What's the Queen Koopa like?
216 ms