So, how do I sell Mozilla?

Post #162,663 by inthane-chan 7/2/04 1:17:54 PM Reply	So, how do I sell Mozilla? I sent my new boss a copy of the CERT recommendation that we drop Internet Explorer for Mozilla, and indicate that we can do this as soon as we roll out the next version of Siebel. I also mention that we should begin planning now rather than later, due to testing requirements, etc. So, now he wants to talk about it on Tuesday. I'm planning on covering the following points: Internet Explorer has key components integrated tightly in to the Windows OS. These key components increase the vulnerability of the system due to buffer overflows, etc. Microsoft has x unpatched security flaws in IE that are known, that have not been addressed despite public knowledge of them. There is software which will fixe IE's problems, but it's better to have a more secure base than to wrap it with security. Mozilla is a "single directory, all-inclusive" install - this also makes updating easy. Bugfixes are quick due to the nature of open source development. Stable and mature. Anybody got any good ideas or suggestions? Presentations you've made to sell it? Etc? Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Post #162,664 by Yendor 7/2/04 1:32:43 PM Reply	One thing to note... ...Mozilla, as I have been reminded as recently as last week, is still pre-1.0 software. There are times where, if you upgrade versions of it, it will refuse to start due to a problem with your user directory. In my case, it boiled down to something amiss in the `prefs.js` file. The problem, however, is that it failed silently. Caused much anguish before I bothered to figure out exactly what the problem was. So if you are able to convince him to move to Mozilla, be sure you pick a version and stick with it... Sorry, no help on your real query here, but it's something that you should know first. -YendorMike [link\|http://www.hope-ride.org/\|http://www.hope-ride.org/]
Post #162,666 by Steve Lowe 7/2/04 1:38:12 PM Reply	not quite Firefox is pre 1.0 (0.9.1 currently) Mozilla has been past 1.0 for quite some time, 1.7 currently. -- Steve
Post #162,670 by Yendor 7/2/04 2:06:25 PM Reply	While you're right technically... ...Any software that refuses to start with no meaningful error message when all you've done is upgrade versions fits into the "pre-1.0 release" realm in my book. :) -YendorMike [link\|http://www.hope-ride.org/\|http://www.hope-ride.org/]
Post #162,671 by Steve Lowe 7/2/04 2:11:28 PM Reply	gotcha, agreed! -- Steve
Post #162,731 by folkert 7/2/04 11:13:38 PM Reply	Well, you screw with it'sd settings all the time. WTF you expect? Internet Explorer does the same thing... the only difference it start with a "sane" set of defaults should things be borked. Personally I'd rather it fail... quietly no... but fail none the less. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Heard near the SCOG employee entry/exit way: `Security: We got another Mass Exodus Doorway Jam.`
Post #162,881 by Yendor 7/5/04 12:17:37 PM Reply	Actually, no, I don't. Prior to the breakage experienced last week, I hadn't installed anything new into Mozilla in at least a couple of months. I'd been through quite a few minor upgrades to Moz, and none of those broke. I think the last thing I installed was one of those tab extensions you'd pointed to a while back. I had that and the User Agent Switcher installed. That's really about it. The UA switcher hasn't made it back into my latest install yet cuz I haven't had a burning need for it. And I still hold that an application that fails because it can't read its own configuration file(s) and gives the user no reason as to why (even when run under `strace mozilla`) is pre-1.0. If it wants to fail, that's perfectly alright. But tell me "Unknown configuration element at /home/mike/.mozilla/default/mumble/prefs.js, Line 103: Element `glarblefark=Y` not known." -YendorMike [link\|http://www.hope-ride.org/\|http://www.hope-ride.org/]
Post #162,882 by deSitter 7/5/04 12:22:07 PM Reply	LRPD! Option garblefark=y not known. -drl
Post #162,884 by bepatient 7/5/04 12:26:12 PM Reply	And we have read... ...The Book of LRPDism. Hand scribed notes of the creator. Wow ;-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #162,886 by deSitter 7/5/04 12:27:31 PM Reply	Re: And we have read... One of the creator's obsequious minions saw fit to inscribe therein, a missive from the creator himself! -drl
Post #162,890 by ChrisR 7/5/04 12:55:41 PM Reply	Sounds like y'all got the redacted version The originals are still safely hidden from those who have not tasted the true fruit of knowledge.
Post #162,966 by broomberg 7/5/04 8:57:42 PM Reply	You don't understand At the party. The admin. Notebook in hand. It was like watching Moses carve the tablets.
Post #162,982 by deSitter 7/5/04 9:18:06 PM Reply	Re: You don't understand I now present these 15 pages.. (splash) 10 - 10 pages of LRPDisms! -drl
Post #162,999 by bepatient 7/5/04 10:32:57 PM Reply	But I have tasted... ...and the fruit is sweet. But to witness creation as opposed to just admiring the results of said creation...priceless. I have seen the Power and the Glory. (any more of this and I'm gonna have to fork it to Religion) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #162,736 by Ashton 7/3/04 12:47:40 AM Reply	Only experienced that once when I foolishly installed-over an existing directory ["Mozilla"]. I also found the .js connection, on that event. It is also true that the Moz notes suggested against "installing over", though with only vague 'whys'. My reasoning was, were I to Uninstall present version first: Am I Sure that a ton of mail + humongous b/mark files, prefs wouldn't also disappear (though backed-up on CD, natch). I have yet to test this thesis. Why bother? At least 5 installs since that ~ 1.x-RC1, each in its own directory, "Mozilla16, Mozilla17" etc. - never had an iota of a problem; all the necessaries from bookmark to mail being perfectly accessed. And I don't know shit. (But yes - utter newbie would have to be Shown/Told - "you must alter the default file location of /yada/'Mozilla' during Install: to its new designation, on each upgrade.) Maybe that's an onerous thing in bizland '04. But compared to IE .. Ashton
Post #162,737 by pwhysall 7/3/04 12:57:56 AM Reply	Stick it on eBay. ba-dum TISH. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #162,758 by folkert 7/3/04 11:42:34 PM Reply	Please also stress... That the "tight" integration with windows* is/was a design decision they are not going to go back on. Has been addressed many times by security people and media et. al.. This single decision cascaded into multiple design decisions to "speed up" and "optimaze" (no, not optimize) the conversation of IE <--> IIS a Traditional request and response session is not required from IE if talking to an IIS server. But any other browsers get the response as an IE, which of course they regurgitate and signal the IIS webserver that it responded wrong, which then IIS defaults back to the proper request response conversation. This has the effect of IIS appearing to SMOKE on IE, but could have significant issue with MITM (Man in the middle) snoops using IIS default response setup to be transparent. Yes it is more difficult than just doing it, but if it is possible... more than likely someone is working on a way to "make useful" the technical snafu. The non-traditional response sequence causes additional traffic to have to be routed through the Internet, for those non-IE browsers. Another effect, that most Other Webservers in use on the internet fall into the category of traditional request response sessions. Which then causes additional traffic to be required for the IE browser to correctly request and respond to the webservers that are not IIS. Seeing as IE (Right Now) is the PreDominant Browser, barring cliques like us that use Gecko based browsers heavily, and that the pre-dominant Webserver is apache... you do the piece together. If you want proof, watch a conversation with IE & IIS, IE & Apache, Mozilla & Apache. Server the exact same page. Just a basic Hello with title page. Capture the entire coversation each time and look. Good Luck. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Heard near the SCOG employee entry/exit way: `Security: We got another Mass Exodus Doorway Jam.`
Post #162,836 by deSitter 7/5/04 9:30:42 AM Reply	Be historical Point out the proceedings in the trial where it was demonstrated how Windows and IE were joined at the ass. And you're not selling. You don't sell to the boss. You calmly and objectively hold out a tray with chocolates and turds, then hope he can smell. -drl

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