Post #15,857
10/31/01 10:11:49 AM
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Why are Religion and War so often tied together?
All religions seem to have been required to kill their perceived enemies at some stage in their development, haven't they. Why does this trend seem to be continuing with the Islamic Fundementalists? Any ideas?
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Post #15,862
10/31/01 11:01:07 AM
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What could be more important?
Someone believes something other than what you do - or that you are not doing right... well, what do you do?
Accept their ways? Or fight?
Somewhat by evolution peaceful religions are mostly wiped out.... :)
In the local NC area, there's a area in what used to be Salem (Now Winston-Salem), the local history is that it was occupied by a bunch of ..... errrr. offshoots of Quakers? Anyway, they didn't believe in violence.
So they'd clear an area, build a house, and someone would come by, toss them out on their ear, so they'd start all over again. :)
You can see why there aren't a lot of them anymore. :)
All religions seem to have been required to kill their perceived enemies at some stage in their development
And it depends on how you interpret various things. Certainly, there are religions that do not speak of killing enemies. Others revel in it. Think of how many religions that we know of that are now "gone" - not practiced anymore.
What's more important than protecting/glorifying your god(s)? Basically, when someone moves in nearby who believes that its important that you glorify THEIR god.... Cause after all, otherwise, its in an insult to their god(s)'s divineness..........
Addison
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Post #15,868
10/31/01 11:40:08 AM
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Moravians.
Hi Addison,
In the local NC area, there's a area in what used to be Salem (Now Winston-Salem), the local history is that it was occupied by a bunch of ..... errrr. offshoots of Quakers? Anyway, they didn't believe in violence.
More info on the Moravian history is [link|http://users.erols.com/fmoran/morav.html|here]. Not much about their beliefs though.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #15,875
10/31/01 11:56:37 AM
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Oh, yeah. *duh*.
Its been one of those kinda mornings...
Thanks, Scott.
Addison
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Post #15,864
10/31/01 11:23:24 AM
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Bad news
Hate to break it to you, but the use of religion as a reason for war is pretty much a problem of the Jewish descended religions. Not exclusive mind you, but if you look at wars where the primary reasons include religion you won't find many that are not part of the Jewish/Christian/Islam set.
It's also important to remember that many wars that had religion as the claimed reason really had little to do with religion. Several of the Crusades for instance had far more to do with land, money and politics then religion, though religion was the reason given for all of them.
There are a couple of reasons for why wars and Jewish descended religions are tied, but the key one is the built in idea of having a exclusively correct view of reality. This causes problems not only for the overt problem of forced conversion but also because it makes it far easier to weld a group of people into a single large force and it makes it very difficult for any of these religions to share a population with another religion.
As for why Islamic fundamentalists? Once again, there are number of interlocking reasons, but the two key ones are the total belief that they are right and the inherent violence of Islam.
The first is the same one I gave above, the inherent idea in these religions that they have an exclusively correct view of the world. Because of this they see no problem forcing their beliefs on others. And this is by no means exclusive to Islam, Christian and Jewish fundamentalists are just as bad. Christians fundamentalists are always trying to force their view on others while at the same time trying to keep from being exposed to any other ideas. It's the same psychology, just using different phrasing.
The second problem is that Islam takes the Judo-Christian glorifying of war and turns it into a religious imperative. Muslims are told they have a duty to spread the faith, and that war is often the preferable way to spread it. Thus it should come as no surprise that Muslims fanatics resort of violence to achieve their goals.
Jay
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Post #15,876
10/31/01 12:03:01 PM
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They are seen as mutually supporting means to liberation
A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly by the chain of their own ideas;...despair and time eat away the bonds of iron and steel, but they are powerless against the habitual union of ideas, they can only tighten it still more; and on the soft fibres of the brain is founded the unshakable base of the soundest of Empires."
Jacques Servan, 1767
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Post #15,879
10/31/01 12:16:48 PM
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Tribal conflict grown large.
One of the defining aspects of a tribe is it's religion. Different religion = different tribe, different tribe = enemy.
Don Richards,
Proud recipient of the ABBA.
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Post #15,892
10/31/01 2:14:06 PM
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Not always
Pagan groups kill each other, and invoke their gods for support - even when the enemies have more or less the same gods. It's a case of our statue of Oogabooga is better than your statue of Oogabooga.
Idolatry blurs the distinction between religious sentiment and civic pride.
And some people have killed each other without even bothering to come up with a justification, beyond "well, we all die eventually anyway, so what the hell."
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
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Post #15,898
10/31/01 2:43:29 PM
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True
Another aspect can probably be described as the "rationalization of desires".
I want your stuff but forcibly taking it marks me as a bully to all the other tribes/nations. Saying "God requires me to *save* you infidels from yourselves, even if it means killing you" gets me off the hook.
Don Richards,
Proud recipient of the ABBA.
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Post #16,031
11/1/01 9:55:43 AM
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The funny thing
The funny thing about that is that Islam contains a rather strong condemnation of fighting other Muslims, particularly for tribal reasons. Muslims are supposed to go kill the heathens, not each other.
But the Muslims have never really followed the rules in the Koran about treating every other Muslim as a brother. Even at the peak of Islamic culture, Muslims of Arabian decent considered themselves better then Muslims from other regions. And through out Islamic history there have been sects of Muslims fighting against each other, and various tribal groups that follow Islam have been in fighting since well before the religion existed.
Jay
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Post #16,070
11/1/01 3:29:52 PM
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Well.. yes, which may be why
'Religion' - the very concept itself, of ~
Meta-allegiance to an internally imagined 'personal God who Loves Me Myself Specially' / via voices in my head / and must be obeyed, no matter *what* those 'instructions'* mean for my next actions towards fellow homo-saps all around.
* as I decode then unerringly.. of course!
- may be listed on the death certificate for the species, as cause of expiry. (Should anyone have time for a grave-stone amidst the debris.) The nukes are only the EZ means, not the proximate cause.
cf. The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, Julian Jaynes - for one story at 11.
Pace pace O Mio Dio
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Post #15,902
10/31/01 3:21:32 PM
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You cant have an US without a THEM that starts it all
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #15,938
10/31/01 6:18:19 PM
10/31/01 6:41:54 PM
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All of the above ^^^
As neat a summary gathered in one place, as I've seen in a while. Marx was never more keenly observant than in creating the phrase [perhaps borrowed, as most things Aren't new]
..the opiate of the masses.
* Drugs, steel chains, oppression - are far less effective than the coopting of language itself; inculcating into children a belief-system impervious to reason or even - continued survival of the entire species. With the concept of God firmly ingrained: no human atrocity is impermissible next, as God represents the Mystery = Anything Goes. {shudder}
..Ours not to reason why... Natch. da capo
* per tse's sig.
Works on this planet. (No antitoxin seen, which doesn't need generations to effect)
A.
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Post #15,960
10/31/01 9:30:46 PM
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You got that right.
This was an impressive thread, especially after I feared the responses could get ugly.
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Post #15,979
10/31/01 10:52:57 PM
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brettj ugly is as ugly does
the people here can jump someone when ox is gored or stupidity trumpeted. That was not the case in the question asked.
Let us start a religion.
first define who we are.
What we believe is identified with clear definitions of what is not acceptable to us, either behaviorly or materialistically. This clearly defines those who are not us.
Since those who are not us, by our own definition are inferior, our relationships to them is fractionable. This leads to strife, theft and violence. No religion of any creed judeo based or not is exempt. Egypt and Sumeria, Sparta existed before G_d spoke to Moses and they had standing armies. By definition you do not have a standing army without expectation of killing.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #16,004
11/1/01 2:02:44 AM
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And wicked is as wicked does.
Is that what you are getting at?
It's similar to "stupid is as stupid does", ie don't call me stupid unless I commit stupid acts.
(remembering the distinction between ignorance and stupidity)
Notice the similarity to "wicked is as wicked does", ie don't call me wicked unless I commit evil acts.
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Post #16,005
11/1/01 2:03:15 AM
11/1/01 2:25:04 AM
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duplicate post. (erased)
Edited by brettj
Nov. 1, 2001, 02:25:04 AM EST
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Post #15,984
10/31/01 11:15:00 PM
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I think it's rather a good demonstration, actually...
... of "There is no one right answer." :-)
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #16,007
11/1/01 2:35:02 AM
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LRPD- 'Incidentally, my Liege, this is how we know
the world to be banana-shaped'.
...Perhaps there is One true Oracle, with added advantage: none has seen Her face!
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Post #16,043
11/1/01 12:09:44 PM
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Personally...
...I think economics is a better predictor of aggressive behavior than religion.
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Post #16,069
11/1/01 3:15:25 PM
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Is there a(n actual) difference, in the end?
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Post #16,076
11/1/01 4:06:17 PM
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In Dollar we Trust?
Well, religion is the method whereby the economic beneficiaries (rich and powerful) manage to talk the lower class into participating. It's just not very inspirational if they say that what they really want is land and all that money being lavished by the west onto a few sheiks.
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Post #16,322
11/3/01 5:17:23 AM
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Am reminded of a particular quote.
"... most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper which were unhappy."
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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