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New There are a multitude of XML based languages....
...that are turing complete (XSLT and XQRY for example). But I think for the given purpose of internationalization that doesn't count for much.
New If your config files are TC, then why have 2 langs?
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Do you really have to ask?
If we have OOP languages which are Turing Complete, do we really need TOP languages?
New TC != Easy
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Exactly.
It's not easy doing XML transformations in XQuery and it's not easy doing XML queries in XSLT. Meaning that they are solutions geared for different problem spaces. Not that I particularly like the complexities of either but they both have their reason for existence, even if they happen to overlap.

Similary, the consummate Turing Machine is not particularly easy to do day to day computing chores, but it's reason for it's existance is mostly theoretical and mathematical - to establish the outer limits for computability. In terms of expressing the concepts of computability, the turing machine is a very good (and easy to use language).

The emphasis in theoretic computability these days lies more with Church and the Lambda Calculus. Some languages have arisen from this effort - ML, Haskell, Scheme. But the primary emphasis in Lambda Calculus (and associated Combinatorial Logic) is providing a mathematical model of computability - in that frame of reference, the Lambda Calculus is much easier to build a foundation upon. Though there are other efforts such as the Relational Calculus (RDBMS), the Predicate Calculus (Logic & Declarative), and the Pi Calculus (distributed processing) - and that's not even getting into the usefulness of Category Theory.

Anyhow, the point (if there was a point) is that merely claiming turing complete is not much of a feat. It doesn't tell us much about how well a language can tackle a given problem given resource constraints. So, yes, Turing Tarpit languages like BrainF*ck are Turing Complete, but that doesn't mean they are useful beyond the offhand parlour tricks.
New One's a hammer, the other is a screwdriver.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New As an aside, that question has popped up in another context
Being MS, one can promote the standards that benefit MS, whilst ignoring others. MS has decided that it will go with the latest [link|http://blogs.msdn.com/mfussell/archive/2004/05/13/130969.aspx|XQuery but not XSLT 2.0 and XPath]. Mostly I think it's a case of being arbitrary and capricious (a term quite familiar in antritrust cases btw). There are overlaps between the three, but they are geared towards different things - hammers and screwdrivers as Admin is like to say.
New BTW, Turing machines don't require much.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/shapes/brain.html|brainf*ck] does it with a mere 6 instructions - and two of those are unnecessary since they have to do with I/O. Even shorter are [link|http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/combinator/birds.html|SK Combinators] which achieve Turing completeness with a mere two combinators:
   K such that:  Kab = a\n   S such that:  Sabc = ac(bc)

Or you can even get down to [link|http://www.cs.uu.nl/people/jeroen/article/combinat/index.html|one combinator].

Not that you really want to program in these turing complete languages. :-)
     Re: Login checks and declarative processing - (admin) - (130)
         Re Re: Login checks and declarative processing - (tablizer) - (129)
             Declarative languages can easily be turing complete - (ChrisR) - (9)
                 I am assuming he means XML-like -NT - (tablizer) - (8)
                     There are a multitude of XML based languages.... - (ChrisR) - (7)
                         If your config files are TC, then why have 2 langs? -NT - (tablizer) - (5)
                             Do you really have to ask? - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                 TC != Easy -NT - (tablizer) - (1)
                                     Exactly. - (ChrisR)
                             One's a hammer, the other is a screwdriver. -NT - (admin)
                             As an aside, that question has popped up in another context - (ChrisR)
                         BTW, Turing machines don't require much. - (ChrisR)
             Re: Login checks and declarative processing - (admin) - (118)
                 Login checks and declarative processing - (tablizer) - (117)
                     Re: Login checks and declarative processing - (admin) - (116)
                         Polymorphism - (tablizer) - (115)
                             Raison d'etre d'composition - (FuManChu) - (3)
                                 Epicycles - (tablizer) - (2)
                                     Re: Epicycles - (admin)
                                     Once more with feeling - (FuManChu)
                             So the best organization of code is... - (ChrisR) - (8)
                                 The funny thing is... - (admin) - (1)
                                     Noticed that too - (drewk)
                                 That is NOT what I said - (tablizer) - (5)
                                     Re: That is NOT what I said - (admin)
                                     Poor dichotomy on which to base your opinion of OO - (FuManChu) - (3)
                                         re: Poor dichotomy on which to base your opinion of OO - (tablizer) - (2)
                                             re: Poor dichotomy on which to base your opinion of OO - (admin) - (1)
                                                 How Lisp of you. Just add some TOP now. -NT - (tablizer)
                             Who says it's hard-coupled to a single factor? - (admin) - (101)
                                 so you say - (tablizer) - (100)
                                     Sounds like another... - (admin) - (99)
                                         Text is linear - (tablizer) - (98)
                                             Re: Text is linear - (admin) - (97)
                                                 Delt-A-Matic - (tablizer) - (96)
                                                     Re: Delt-A-Matic - (admin) - (95)
                                                         problem is treed-files, not procedural - (tablizer) - (94)
                                                             Re: problem is treed-files, not procedural - (admin) - (21)
                                                                 Re: problem is treed-files, not procedural - (tablizer) - (20)
                                                                     Re: problem is treed-files, not procedural - (admin) - (19)
                                                                         Re: problem is treed-files, not procedural - (tablizer) - (18)
                                                                             Re: problem is treed-files, not procedural - (admin) - (17)
                                                                                 misunderstanding - (tablizer) - (16)
                                                                                     Re: misunderstanding - (admin) - (15)
                                                                                         Well... I pack up my development database and... - (ChrisR)
                                                                                         How do you prime it in the first place? - (folkert) - (2)
                                                                                             I prefer Kilz myself. -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                                 That works well... - (folkert)
                                                                                         The file system *is* a database - (tablizer) - (9)
                                                                                             Re: The file system *is* a database - (admin) - (8)
                                                                                                 over-the-phone brain surgery - (tablizer) - (7)
                                                                                                     Re: over-the-phone brain surgery - (admin) - (6)
                                                                                                         a single command does not like databases? - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                                                             Re: a single command does not like databases? - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                                 Re: single command - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                                     Naw... you are thinking... - (folkert)
                                                                                                                     Re: single command - (admin)
                                                                                                             Database migrations (new thread) - (admin)
                                                                                         Nit: some code does belong in a database. (sp's) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                             Exactly. - (FuManChu) - (71)
                                                                 Amazing, isn't it? - (admin)
                                                                 OO takes credit for sunrises even - (tablizer) - (69)
                                                                     Scheme and the Lambda Calculus - (ChrisR)
                                                                     Re: OO takes credit for sunrises even - (admin) - (60)
                                                                         No way Jose -- Gotta go to DB anyhow - (tablizer) - (59)
                                                                             Er... - (admin) - (27)
                                                                                 "Use OO because OO is faster" is the best you can do? - (tablizer) - (26)
                                                                                     Serious question - (drewk) - (2)
                                                                                         Interrelated - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                             Re: Interrelated - (admin)
                                                                                     Re: "Use OO because OO is faster" is the best you can do? - (admin) - (22)
                                                                                         Table != Disk - (tablizer) - (21)
                                                                                             Re: OR mappers slowing things down - (ChrisR) - (17)
                                                                                                 Re: OR mappers slowing things down - (tablizer) - (16)
                                                                                                     Re: OR mappers slowing things down - (ChrisR) - (15)
                                                                                                         Re: OR mappers slowing things down - (tablizer) - (14)
                                                                                                             Procedural abstraction - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                                                                                 My abstraction can beat up your abstraction - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                     re: Relational is more than storage (new thread) - (ChrisR)
                                                                                                             It wasn't a caching issue - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                                                                                 No file IO - (admin) - (9)
                                                                                                                     I understand how it worked - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                                         Index lookup in code, or table index? - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                                                             That requirement would shock me - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                                                                                                                 Re: That requirement would shock me - (admin) - (5)
                                                                                                                                     Question about Oracle tables - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                                                                                                         You can pin them in memory. - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                                                             Oracle tables pinned in memory. - (admin)
                                                                                                                                     You did give the impression that CPU was the issue - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                                                                         Whoops, my mistake. -NT - (admin)
                                                                                             Re: Table != Disk - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                 This is an area in which I'm proud of Dejavu - (FuManChu) - (1)
                                                                                                     Nifty. - (admin)
                                                                             Another little anecdote for you: - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                 OT: Scott, can we please do something about long lines? - (jb4) - (6)
                                                                                     Dang, this was SUPPOSED to go into the Suggestions forum - (jb4) - (3)
                                                                                         The other way, besides cut and paste, is to re-type it :-) -NT - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                                                             There isn't enough time in the world... - (jb4) - (1)
                                                                                                 HTH: As with Perl, There's More Than One Way To Do It -NT - (ChrisR)
                                                                                     Perhaps one might play with CSS clip and overflow...? -NT - (FuManChu)
                                                                                     Not that I'm aware of. - (admin)
                                                                             Retrieving the customer record anyway: - (admin) - (22)
                                                                                 question - (tablizer) - (21)
                                                                                     Re: question - (admin) - (20)
                                                                                         The other method is to have one column.... - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                                                             Re: The other method is to have one column.... - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                 That's the spirit!!! -NT - (ChrisR)
                                                                                         I would have to look at the nature of the data -NT - (tablizer) - (16)
                                                                                             Are you kidding?? - (admin) - (15)
                                                                                                 suggestion 3 - (tablizer) - (14)
                                                                                                     Re: suggestion 3 - (admin) - (13)
                                                                                                         bottleneck black box - (tablizer) - (12)
                                                                                                             Storing Dictionary as Session variables in ASP - (ChrisR) - (8)
                                                                                                                 It has gotta go *somewhere* - (tablizer) - (7)
                                                                                                                     ASP is OO - (ChrisR) - (6)
                                                                                                                         re: ASP is OO - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                                                                             ASP = COM - (ChrisR) - (4)
                                                                                                                                 re: ASP = COM - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                                                                     ChiliSoft ASP - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                                                                                                         Interesting terminology - (FuManChu) - (1)
                                                                                                                                             You're probably correct convention-wise - (ChrisR)
                                                                                                             Re: bottleneck black box - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                 how they relate - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Re: how they relate - (admin)
                                                                     I don't understand why you mention "eval" -NT - (FuManChu) - (6)
                                                                         re: I don't understand why you mention "eval" - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                             I get it now. - (FuManChu) - (4)
                                                                                 OO is just a (bad) reinvention of 60's databases with - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                     No. You are a proponent of OO programming. - (folkert) - (2)
                                                                                         The question that launched a thousand arguments - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                             That explains a lot - (FuManChu)

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