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New Forced to use A to get B? Tsk tsk tsk. How MS of them.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New You miss the point, anyway.
HQL can be used against any database engine.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New I am not necessarily disagreeing with that here
I am only saying that a better and/or vender-neutral query language/system is or can be orthogonal to O-R mappers.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Re: I am not necessarily disagreeing with that here
At this point, it is not orthogonal. It exists for Hibernate, and it was easy to write because of OO. If you disagree, prove me wrong. Otherwise concede the point.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New not my burden of evidence
It exists for Hibernate, and it was easy to write because of OO. If you disagree, prove me wrong. Otherwise concede the point.


By "easy to write", do you mean using the framework or making the framework?

You have the burden of showing something being "easy". Remember: "Equal, subjective, or unknown until proven otherwise". I can accept that my preferences may be purely a subjective mindfit. If you believe OO is some universal truth and/or a slum-dunk improvement, then it is your burden to show it.
________________
oop.ismad.com
Expand Edited by tablizer May 23, 2004, 12:10:06 AM EDT
New Wrong.
Hibernate exists. Your mythical über SQL doesn't. If your version is even as good, let alone better, then you need to show it. Otherwise it's vaporware.

Now go answer or concede the other points.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New exist != good
Hibernate exists. Your mythical \ufffdber SQL doesn't. If your version is even as good, let alone better, then you need to show it. Otherwise it's vaporware.


Mere existence does not necessarily lead to goodness. You need to explain why it is so good using code. Show me something that procedural or raw SQL MUST result in a mess with. Nor am I going to compete with an army of programmers to build a clone of Hibernate all by myself. That is not a realistic request. I can perhaps show specific aspects though.

And being DB-neutral is moot because you are tied to Hibernate in a similar way. You are applying a double-standard.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Existence beats Non-Existence
New I've already shown you.
Go answer or concede the other points.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Hm. So I can make any claim and force you to prove me wrong?
You started this debate with some wild claims. Are you saying now "that was just subjective?"

Remember: "Equal, subjective, or unknown until proven otherwise".


Nice ideal. But they're in reverse order. If you want your claims to move from unknown/subjective to equal, the burden is on *you*. That's life. Suck it up.
New Actually, what he said was:
"You spend all your code translating back and forth between two discordant paradigms."

So he made a very specific claim in this instance. ;-)
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Expand Edited by admin May 23, 2004, 10:53:33 AM EDT
     Have I mentioned lately that Python is BITCHIN??? - (FuManChu) - (167)
         The solution is to toss OO to begin with, not Python - (tablizer) - (166)
             Re: The solution is to toss OO to begin with, not Python - (admin) - (11)
                 not today -NT - (tablizer) - (2)
                     *BLAM BLAM* *VROOOOOooooommm.....* -NT - (pwhysall) - (1)
                         and when you do the same? -NT - (tablizer)
                 Bloat explanation - (tablizer) - (7)
                     Not what I meant. - (admin)
                     That's a very table-centric point of view - (FuManChu) - (5)
                         Of course. Tables rock. Code is ugly. - (tablizer) - (4)
                             Snort. - (FuManChu) - (1)
                                 Re: Snort - (tablizer)
                             So now you're down on "skinny" tables? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                 Re: So now you're down on "skinny" tables? - (tablizer)
             Not sure what you're pushing for. - (FuManChu) - (153)
                 Software engineering is gambling - (tablizer) - (152)
                     The only thing this app does is business modeling. -NT - (FuManChu) - (151)
                         I meant showing me code, not anecdotes -NT - (tablizer) - (150)
                             Ironic, considering how much code *you* have shown... -NT - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                 Wonder how the L Compiler is getting on? -NT - (pwhysall) - (6)
                                     It's Late. - (admin) - (5)
                                         I was wondering where the L it was. -NT - (pwhysall)
                                         The P game - (tablizer) - (3)
                                             Re: The P game - (admin) - (2)
                                                 you still have no evidence of betterment - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                     No, you compare it. - (admin)
                                 The burden of evidence is on you - (tablizer) - (1)
                                     And what claim did I ever make? - (ben_tilly)
                             Well, here's the thing - (FuManChu) - (139)
                                 Unicorns - (tablizer) - (138)
                                     OT: Have you been reading Groklaw tonight too? - (Another Scott)
                                     General description - (FuManChu) - (136)
                                         SQL wrapper? - (tablizer) - (135)
                                             Generic SQL wrapper API - (admin) - (30)
                                                 I see bloated people - (tablizer) - (29)
                                                     Er... - (admin) - (19)
                                                         re: Er... - (tablizer) - (18)
                                                             Nice attempt - (admin) - (17)
                                                                 re: Nice attempt - (tablizer) - (13)
                                                                     re: Nice attempt - (admin) - (12)
                                                                         Forgot to add: - (admin)
                                                                         Aieee! Actual code! HOW DARE YOU!!! -NT - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                                                             Making it interesting - (ChrisR) - (9)
                                                                                 Heh. I think Bryce would rather have someone else write it - (FuManChu)
                                                                                 Don't you know? - (Arkadiy)
                                                                                 Putting words in my mouth - (tablizer) - (6)
                                                                                     Actually, what you said was: - (admin)
                                                                                     Re: Putting words in my mouth - (admin)
                                                                                     Code Talks. Bryce Walks. - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                                                                         I shall consider it -NT - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                             Thanks. - (ChrisR)
                                                                                             If you don't... - (admin)
                                                                 RE: Are you willing to admit this yet? - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                                     Even OO fans are mixed about OR-mappers - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                         Looks pretty specific. - (admin)
                                                     In Dejavu, one would write: - (FuManChu) - (8)
                                                         Re: In Dejavu, one would write: - (JimWeirich) - (2)
                                                             An earlier version was like that. - (FuManChu) - (1)
                                                                 Forgot: code links - (FuManChu)
                                                         ICLRPD - (drewk)
                                                         Why learn and/or create another query language? - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                             In case you missed it: - (FuManChu) - (2)
                                                                 only for the trivial - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                     There are multiple ways of doing that... - (FuManChu)
                                             LCD *for my framework* - (FuManChu) - (103)
                                                 RDBMS > "data store" - (tablizer) - (102)
                                                     Re: RDBMS > "data store" - (admin) - (92)
                                                         still have not justified yet another tool/layers - (tablizer) - (91)
                                                             Re: still have not justified yet another tool/layers - (admin) - (90)
                                                                 before and after - (tablizer) - (89)
                                                                     Re: before and after - (admin) - (88)
                                                                         Then why have an OR-mapper middleman? -NT - (tablizer) - (87)
                                                                             Because: - (admin) - (86)
                                                                                 I forgot about query caching--a big part of my other app. -NT - (FuManChu)
                                                                                 Those are problems that OO introduces - (tablizer) - (84)
                                                                                     Re: Those are problems that OO introduces - (admin) - (83)
                                                                                         response - (tablizer) - (82)
                                                                                             Re: response 1 - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                 Looks like a lot of beurOOcracy to me - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                     Not claiming "victory" - (admin)
                                                                                                     Let's see your version, then. -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                                                             Re: response 2 - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                                 Re Re: response 2 - (tablizer) - (15)
                                                                                                     HQL is a superset of SQL - (admin) - (13)
                                                                                                         re: HQL is a superset of SQL - (tablizer) - (12)
                                                                                                             re: HQL is a superset of SQL - (admin) - (11)
                                                                                                                 Forced to use A to get B? Tsk tsk tsk. How MS of them. -NT - (tablizer) - (10)
                                                                                                                     You miss the point, anyway. - (admin) - (9)
                                                                                                                         I am not necessarily disagreeing with that here - (tablizer) - (8)
                                                                                                                             Re: I am not necessarily disagreeing with that here - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                                                                 not my burden of evidence - (tablizer) - (6)
                                                                                                                                     Wrong. - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                                                         exist != good - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                                                             Existence beats Non-Existence -NT - (ChrisR)
                                                                                                                                             I've already shown you. - (admin)
                                                                                                                                     Hm. So I can make any claim and force you to prove me wrong? - (FuManChu) - (1)
                                                                                                                                         Actually, what he said was: - (admin)
                                                                                                     Persistence vs. reporting - (admin)
                                                                                             Re: response 3 - (admin) - (55)
                                                                                                 Re Re: response 3 - (tablizer) - (54)
                                                                                                     Caching - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                         Re: caching - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                             Er, no it isn't. - (admin)
                                                                                                     Serial changes - (admin) - (50)
                                                                                                         "Bound" fields - (tablizer) - (49)
                                                                                                             No, no integration. - (admin) - (48)
                                                                                                                 re: No integration - (tablizer) - (47)
                                                                                                                     re: No integration - (admin) - (46)
                                                                                                                         So you want to see an Iwethey clone? - (tablizer) - (45)
                                                                                                                             I'd prefer you answer the points first. - (admin) - (44)
                                                                                                                                 We need code, not brochure-talk, to settle this - (tablizer) - (43)
                                                                                                                                     Re: We need code, not brochure-talk, to settle this - (admin) - (42)
                                                                                                                                         Is that part of iwethey? -NT - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                             Yes. -NT - (admin)
                                                                                                                                         questions and comments - (tablizer) - (39)
                                                                                                                                             Reading comprehension? - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                 What is your complaint? - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                     Why not eliminate everything that is only a bonus? - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                                                                             Then don't bother. - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                                                                                 Fine. It is not "bloated". Just unknown. - (tablizer) - (15)
                                                                                                                                                     That's all I needed. - (admin) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                         Probably not telling you anything you don't already know... - (ChrisR) - (5)
                                                                                                                                                             I take it you mean... - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                 Yep = That's what I meant - (ChrisR)
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Probably not telling you anything you don't already know - (JimWeirich) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                 My memory is too taxed - (ChrisR)
                                                                                                                                                                 Memory Lane - (tablizer)
                                                                                                                                                         re: That's all I needed. - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                             re: That's all I needed. - (admin)
                                                                                                                                                     Caching - (admin)
                                                                                                                                                     Login checks and declarative processing - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                         re: Login checks and declarative processing - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                             re: Login checks and declarative processing - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                 re re: Login checks and declarative processing - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Login checks and declarative processing (new thread) - (admin)
                                                                                                                                             I18N - (admin) - (18)
                                                                                                                                                 You are WRONG! - (tablizer) - (17)
                                                                                                                                                     My my, I touched a raw nerve, apparently. - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                                                                                         Grep is no substitute for clean, normalized data - (tablizer) - (15)
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Grep is no substitute for clean, normalized data - (admin) - (14)
                                                                                                                                                                 Depends on the scale - (tablizer) - (13)
                                                                                                                                                                     You've never used CVS either, have you? -NT - (FuManChu) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                         No, only MS sourcesafe -NT - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                             *shudder* - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                 Not my pickings -NT - (tablizer)
                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Depends on the scale - (admin) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                                         no no no - (tablizer) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: no no no - (admin) - (6)
                                                                                                                                                                                 Doing my part to promote right shifting - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                                     "Oh goody, a new framework for xmas!" - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: "Oh goody, a new framework for xmas!" - (admin)
                                                                                                                                                                                     Internationalization (new thread) - (admin)
                                                                                                                                                                                 admin - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                     Resource files (new thread) - (admin)
                                                                                             Re: response 4 - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                 Lock-in is lock-in - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                     Query caching is a feature of JDBC - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                         Yes - (tablizer)
                                                                                             Re: response 5 - (admin)
                                                     Most of those are problems, not solutions. - (FuManChu) - (8)
                                                         intense DBA and RDBMS bashing - (tablizer) - (7)
                                                             ..heh. Only because they deserve it. ;) - (FuManChu) - (6)
                                                                 re: Only because they deserve it. - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                     I assume you already expect my response: - (FuManChu) - (4)
                                                                         I will agree that... - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                             I've never claimed that _every_ O-R mapper is chicken soup - (FuManChu) - (2)
                                                                                 Most people can at least read Python within 5 minutes. -NT - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                     Whatever -NT - (tablizer)

The only reason the bongos are the worst is because AIs have never tried chicken nuggets before.
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