Putting words in my mouth

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Post #156,311 by tablizer 5/22/04 1:35:42 AM Reply	Putting words in my mouth Bryce claims that the procedural version will be much cleaner. Let's see some actual proof. I didn't claim that. I only claim that it will not be objectively worse. The real benefit would probably be that a p/r version would be more consistent from developer to developer because OO is too open-ended. Every professed OO guru does a very different design. OO is all over the fricken map because it the Goto of structuring. Relational rules and the "group by task" of procedural will tend to produce a more consistent and predictable result than OO. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #156,325 by admin 5/22/04 7:53:24 AM Reply	Actually, what you said was: "You spend all your code translating back and forth between two discordant paradigms." So, where's the bloat? Are you ready to admit that it isn't there yet? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #156,327 by admin 5/22/04 8:10:19 AM Reply	Re: Putting words in my mouth Relational rules and the "group by task" of procedural will tend to produce a more consistent and predictable result than OO. Having seen several large procedural database programs, I question the validity of this statement. "Tend" is a weasel word. Where's your proof? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #156,330 by ChrisR 5/22/04 10:00:19 AM Reply	Code Talks. Bryce Walks. So let's set our goals a bit more realistic. Let's see if you can produce a version of zIWETHEY software that is not "objectively worse".
Post #156,361 by tablizer 5/22/04 1:37:48 PM Reply	I shall consider it ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #156,364 by ChrisR 5/22/04 1:54:33 PM Reply	Thanks. Looking at this is an opportunity to learn more about the app, and make the discussions a bit more than rhetoric. Even if you don't want to piece together the whole app, perhaps you can at least show how some of the pieces of it could be written from a P/R perspective.
Post #156,370 by admin 5/22/04 2:37:40 PM Reply	If you don't... ... then you forfeit all right henceforth to whine, "show me the code". Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Have I mentioned lately that Python is BITCHIN??? - (FuManChu) - (167) - May 12, 2004, 05:27:50 PM EDT

The solution is to toss OO to begin with, not Python - (tablizer) - (166) - May 15, 2004, 02:32:16 AM EDT

Re: The solution is to toss OO to begin with, not Python - (admin) - (11) - May 15, 2004, 10:25:01 AM EDT

not today -NT - (tablizer) - (2) - May 15, 2004, 02:23:14 PM EDT

*BLAM BLAM* *VROOOOOooooommm.....* -NT - (pwhysall) - (1) - May 18, 2004, 01:48:41 AM EDT

and when you do the same? -NT - (tablizer) - May 18, 2004, 02:11:02 AM EDT

Bloat explanation - (tablizer) - (7) - May 20, 2004, 02:16:42 PM EDT

Not what I meant. - (admin) - May 20, 2004, 02:42:07 PM EDT

That's a very table-centric point of view - (FuManChu) - (5) - May 20, 2004, 04:01:01 PM EDT

Of course. Tables rock. Code is ugly. - (tablizer) - (4) - May 20, 2004, 11:51:39 PM EDT

Snort. - (FuManChu) - (1) - May 21, 2004, 03:09:32 AM EDT

Re: Snort - (tablizer) - May 22, 2004, 01:24:08 AM EDT

So now you're down on "skinny" tables? - (ben_tilly) - (1) - May 21, 2004, 01:46:09 PM EDT

Re: So now you're down on "skinny" tables? - (tablizer) - May 22, 2004, 01:27:18 AM EDT

Not sure what you're pushing for. - (FuManChu) - (153) - May 15, 2004, 01:42:31 PM EDT

Software engineering is gambling - (tablizer) - (152) - May 15, 2004, 02:25:02 PM EDT

The only thing this app does is business modeling. -NT - (FuManChu) - (151) - May 15, 2004, 08:29:45 PM EDT

I meant showing me code, not anecdotes -NT - (tablizer) - (150) - May 17, 2004, 03:14:54 PM EDT

Ironic, considering how much code *you* have shown... -NT - (ben_tilly) - (9) - May 17, 2004, 04:08:43 PM EDT

Wonder how the L Compiler is getting on? -NT - (pwhysall) - (6) - May 17, 2004, 05:58:54 PM EDT

It's Late. - (admin) - (5) - May 17, 2004, 06:09:04 PM EDT

I was wondering where the L it was. -NT - (pwhysall) - May 17, 2004, 06:10:43 PM EDT

The P game - (tablizer) - (3) - May 17, 2004, 09:55:24 PM EDT

Re: The P game - (admin) - (2) - May 17, 2004, 10:42:48 PM EDT

you still have no evidence of betterment - (tablizer) - (1) - May 17, 2004, 11:20:07 PM EDT

No, you compare it. - (admin) - May 17, 2004, 11:41:31 PM EDT

The burden of evidence is on you - (tablizer) - (1) - May 17, 2004, 09:58:28 PM EDT

And what claim did I ever make? - (ben_tilly) - May 18, 2004, 01:38:46 AM EDT

Well, here's the thing - (FuManChu) - (139) - May 18, 2004, 11:43:20 AM EDT

Unicorns - (tablizer) - (138) - May 19, 2004, 12:08:46 AM EDT

OT: Have you been reading Groklaw tonight too? - (Another Scott) - May 19, 2004, 12:16:57 AM EDT

General description - (FuManChu) - (136) - May 19, 2004, 03:34:13 PM EDT

SQL wrapper? - (tablizer) - (135) - May 20, 2004, 02:27:17 PM EDT

Generic SQL wrapper API - (admin) - (30) - May 20, 2004, 02:43:41 PM EDT

I see bloated people - (tablizer) - (29) - May 20, 2004, 10:36:48 PM EDT

Er... - (admin) - (19) - May 20, 2004, 11:07:55 PM EDT

re: Er... - (tablizer) - (18) - May 20, 2004, 11:23:21 PM EDT

Nice attempt - (admin) - (17) - May 20, 2004, 11:29:49 PM EDT

re: Nice attempt - (tablizer) - (13) - May 20, 2004, 11:40:36 PM EDT

re: Nice attempt - (admin) - (12) - May 21, 2004, 12:09:30 AM EDT

Forgot to add: - (admin) - May 21, 2004, 12:40:28 AM EDT

Aieee! Actual code! HOW DARE YOU!!! -NT - (pwhysall) - (10) - May 21, 2004, 03:33:20 PM EDT

Making it interesting - (ChrisR) - (9) - May 21, 2004, 04:23:49 PM EDT

Heh. I think Bryce would rather have someone else write it - (FuManChu) - May 21, 2004, 04:36:53 PM EDT

Don't you know? - (Arkadiy) - May 21, 2004, 05:09:06 PM EDT

Putting words in my mouth - (tablizer) - (6) - May 22, 2004, 01:35:42 AM EDT

Actually, what you said was: - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 07:53:24 AM EDT

Re: Putting words in my mouth - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 08:10:19 AM EDT

Code Talks. Bryce Walks. - (ChrisR) - (3) - May 22, 2004, 10:00:19 AM EDT

I shall consider it -NT - (tablizer) - (2) - May 22, 2004, 01:37:48 PM EDT

Thanks. - (ChrisR) - May 22, 2004, 01:54:33 PM EDT

If you don't... - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 02:37:40 PM EDT

RE: Are you willing to admit this yet? - (ChrisR) - (2) - May 20, 2004, 11:45:52 PM EDT

Even OO fans are mixed about OR-mappers - (tablizer) - (1) - May 20, 2004, 11:57:54 PM EDT

Looks pretty specific. - (admin) - May 21, 2004, 12:14:30 AM EDT

In Dejavu, one would write: - (FuManChu) - (8) - May 21, 2004, 03:27:29 AM EDT

Re: In Dejavu, one would write: - (JimWeirich) - (2) - May 21, 2004, 07:03:27 AM EDT

An earlier version was like that. - (FuManChu) - (1) - May 21, 2004, 11:58:02 AM EDT

Forgot: code links - (FuManChu) - May 21, 2004, 12:42:02 PM EDT

ICLRPD - (drewk) - May 21, 2004, 11:09:34 AM EDT

Why learn and/or create another query language? - (tablizer) - (3) - May 22, 2004, 01:52:44 AM EDT

In case you missed it: - (FuManChu) - (2) - May 22, 2004, 10:55:32 AM EDT

only for the trivial - (tablizer) - (1) - May 22, 2004, 01:48:38 PM EDT

There are multiple ways of doing that... - (FuManChu) - May 22, 2004, 06:09:07 PM EDT

LCD *for my framework* - (FuManChu) - (103) - May 20, 2004, 04:33:14 PM EDT

RDBMS > "data store" - (tablizer) - (102) - May 20, 2004, 11:10:21 PM EDT

Re: RDBMS > "data store" - (admin) - (92) - May 20, 2004, 11:30:37 PM EDT

still have not justified yet another tool/layers - (tablizer) - (91) - May 20, 2004, 11:34:01 PM EDT

Re: still have not justified yet another tool/layers - (admin) - (90) - May 20, 2004, 11:37:31 PM EDT

before and after - (tablizer) - (89) - May 20, 2004, 11:44:23 PM EDT

Re: before and after - (admin) - (88) - May 21, 2004, 12:17:14 AM EDT

Then why have an OR-mapper middleman? -NT - (tablizer) - (87) - May 22, 2004, 01:37:16 AM EDT

Because: - (admin) - (86) - May 22, 2004, 08:07:06 AM EDT

I forgot about query caching--a big part of my other app. -NT - (FuManChu) - May 22, 2004, 10:58:05 AM EDT

Those are problems that OO introduces - (tablizer) - (84) - May 22, 2004, 01:36:26 PM EDT

Re: Those are problems that OO introduces - (admin) - (83) - May 22, 2004, 03:51:20 PM EDT

response - (tablizer) - (82) - May 22, 2004, 04:24:01 PM EDT

Re: response 1 - (admin) - (3) - May 22, 2004, 04:51:52 PM EDT

Looks like a lot of beurOOcracy to me - (tablizer) - (2) - May 22, 2004, 05:33:12 PM EDT

Not claiming "victory" - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 05:41:30 PM EDT

Let's see your version, then. -NT - (pwhysall) - May 23, 2004, 03:01:33 AM EDT

Re: response 2 - (admin) - (16) - May 22, 2004, 05:08:32 PM EDT

Re Re: response 2 - (tablizer) - (15) - May 22, 2004, 05:44:46 PM EDT

HQL is a superset of SQL - (admin) - (13) - May 22, 2004, 05:58:10 PM EDT

re: HQL is a superset of SQL - (tablizer) - (12) - May 22, 2004, 07:11:18 PM EDT

re: HQL is a superset of SQL - (admin) - (11) - May 22, 2004, 07:17:45 PM EDT

Forced to use A to get B? Tsk tsk tsk. How MS of them. -NT - (tablizer) - (10) - May 22, 2004, 07:44:37 PM EDT

You miss the point, anyway. - (admin) - (9) - May 22, 2004, 07:46:46 PM EDT

I am not necessarily disagreeing with that here - (tablizer) - (8) - May 22, 2004, 09:17:03 PM EDT

Re: I am not necessarily disagreeing with that here - (admin) - (7) - May 22, 2004, 09:49:59 PM EDT

not my burden of evidence - (tablizer) - (6) - May 23, 2004, 12:10:06 AM EDT

Wrong. - (admin) - (3) - May 23, 2004, 12:37:46 AM EDT

exist != good - (tablizer) - (2) - May 23, 2004, 12:56:18 AM EDT

Existence beats Non-Existence -NT - (ChrisR) - May 23, 2004, 01:00:41 AM EDT

I've already shown you. - (admin) - May 23, 2004, 09:29:00 AM EDT

Hm. So I can make any claim and force you to prove me wrong? - (FuManChu) - (1) - May 23, 2004, 10:21:45 AM EDT

Actually, what he said was: - (admin) - May 23, 2004, 10:53:33 AM EDT

Persistence vs. reporting - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 05:58:53 PM EDT

Re: response 3 - (admin) - (55) - May 22, 2004, 05:14:00 PM EDT

Re Re: response 3 - (tablizer) - (54) - May 22, 2004, 06:14:31 PM EDT

Caching - (admin) - (2) - May 22, 2004, 06:30:10 PM EDT

Re: caching - (tablizer) - (1) - May 22, 2004, 07:20:05 PM EDT

Er, no it isn't. - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 07:47:46 PM EDT

Serial changes - (admin) - (50) - May 22, 2004, 06:30:33 PM EDT

"Bound" fields - (tablizer) - (49) - May 22, 2004, 07:28:51 PM EDT

No, no integration. - (admin) - (48) - May 22, 2004, 07:52:15 PM EDT

re: No integration - (tablizer) - (47) - May 23, 2004, 12:47:13 AM EDT

re: No integration - (admin) - (46) - May 23, 2004, 09:32:39 AM EDT

So you want to see an Iwethey clone? - (tablizer) - (45) - May 23, 2004, 02:15:24 PM EDT

I'd prefer you answer the points first. - (admin) - (44) - May 23, 2004, 03:35:37 PM EDT

We need code, not brochure-talk, to settle this - (tablizer) - (43) - May 23, 2004, 05:24:01 PM EDT

Re: We need code, not brochure-talk, to settle this - (admin) - (42) - May 23, 2004, 06:37:27 PM EDT

Is that part of iwethey? -NT - (tablizer) - (1) - May 23, 2004, 11:49:04 PM EDT

Yes. -NT - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 12:30:00 AM EDT

questions and comments - (tablizer) - (39) - May 24, 2004, 12:41:13 PM EDT

Reading comprehension? - (ben_tilly) - (2) - May 24, 2004, 02:50:12 AM EDT

What is your complaint? - (tablizer) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 12:39:54 PM EDT

Why not eliminate everything that is only a bonus? - (ben_tilly) - May 24, 2004, 08:38:02 PM EDT

Then don't bother. - (admin) - (16) - May 24, 2004, 08:27:08 AM EDT

Fine. It is not "bloated". Just unknown. - (tablizer) - (15) - May 24, 2004, 01:23:24 PM EDT

That's all I needed. - (admin) - (8) - May 24, 2004, 03:12:45 PM EDT

Probably not telling you anything you don't already know... - (ChrisR) - (5) - May 24, 2004, 02:59:25 PM EDT

I take it you mean... - (admin) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 03:02:11 PM EDT

Yep = That's what I meant - (ChrisR) - May 24, 2004, 03:09:53 PM EDT

Re: Probably not telling you anything you don't already know - (JimWeirich) - (2) - May 24, 2004, 04:55:09 PM EDT

My memory is too taxed - (ChrisR) - May 24, 2004, 05:12:43 PM EDT

Memory Lane - (tablizer) - May 24, 2004, 05:16:58 PM EDT

re: That's all I needed. - (tablizer) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 04:40:18 PM EDT

re: That's all I needed. - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 04:46:37 PM EDT

Caching - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 02:48:25 PM EDT

Login checks and declarative processing - (admin) - (4) - May 24, 2004, 02:48:31 PM EDT

re: Login checks and declarative processing - (tablizer) - (3) - May 24, 2004, 04:30:30 PM EDT

re: Login checks and declarative processing - (admin) - (2) - May 24, 2004, 04:40:47 PM EDT

re re: Login checks and declarative processing - (tablizer) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 05:11:26 PM EDT

Re: Login checks and declarative processing (new thread) - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 06:01:48 PM EDT

I18N - (admin) - (18) - May 24, 2004, 12:50:01 PM EDT

You are WRONG! - (tablizer) - (17) - May 24, 2004, 02:15:41 PM EDT

My my, I touched a raw nerve, apparently. - (admin) - (16) - May 24, 2004, 02:31:42 PM EDT

Grep is no substitute for clean, normalized data - (tablizer) - (15) - May 24, 2004, 04:24:23 PM EDT

Re: Grep is no substitute for clean, normalized data - (admin) - (14) - May 24, 2004, 04:35:47 PM EDT

Depends on the scale - (tablizer) - (13) - May 24, 2004, 05:00:31 PM EDT

You've never used CVS either, have you? -NT - (FuManChu) - (3) - May 24, 2004, 05:15:10 PM EDT

No, only MS sourcesafe -NT - (tablizer) - (2) - May 24, 2004, 05:50:18 PM EDT

*shudder* - (admin) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 06:02:42 PM EDT

Not my pickings -NT - (tablizer) - May 25, 2004, 02:10:39 AM EDT

Re: Depends on the scale - (admin) - (8) - May 24, 2004, 05:48:35 PM EDT

no no no - (tablizer) - (7) - May 24, 2004, 06:19:48 PM EDT

Re: no no no - (admin) - (6) - May 24, 2004, 07:02:50 PM EDT

Doing my part to promote right shifting - (ChrisR) - (3) - May 24, 2004, 07:13:59 PM EDT

"Oh goody, a new framework for xmas!" - (tablizer) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 07:24:31 PM EDT

Re: "Oh goody, a new framework for xmas!" - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 07:27:18 PM EDT

Internationalization (new thread) - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 07:25:32 PM EDT

admin - (tablizer) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 07:38:16 PM EDT

Resource files (new thread) - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 08:02:47 PM EDT

Re: response 4 - (admin) - (3) - May 22, 2004, 05:16:20 PM EDT

Lock-in is lock-in - (tablizer) - (2) - May 22, 2004, 06:22:18 PM EDT

Query caching is a feature of JDBC - (admin) - (1) - May 22, 2004, 06:32:27 PM EDT

Yes - (tablizer) - May 22, 2004, 07:31:27 PM EDT

Re: response 5 - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 07:49:36 PM EDT

Most of those are problems, not solutions. - (FuManChu) - (8) - May 21, 2004, 04:34:44 PM EDT

intense DBA and RDBMS bashing - (tablizer) - (7) - May 22, 2004, 07:36:21 PM EDT

..heh. Only because they deserve it. ;) - (FuManChu) - (6) - May 22, 2004, 06:19:58 PM EDT

re: Only because they deserve it. - (tablizer) - (5) - May 22, 2004, 07:42:16 PM EDT

I assume you already expect my response: - (FuManChu) - (4) - May 22, 2004, 08:05:06 PM EDT

I will agree that... - (tablizer) - (3) - May 22, 2004, 09:25:34 PM EDT

I've never claimed that _every_ O-R mapper is chicken soup - (FuManChu) - (2) - May 23, 2004, 10:12:20 AM EDT

Most people can at least read Python within 5 minutes. -NT - (admin) - (1) - May 23, 2004, 10:50:37 AM EDT

Whatever -NT - (tablizer) - May 23, 2004, 11:45:33 PM EDT

Get the ball in the pocket!
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