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New Of course. Tables rock. Code is ugly.
My approach has been to auto-generate the DB, rather than the code.


I hope it is good relational normalization. Some OO'ers prefer a bunch of "skinny" tables, and that is uuuuugly and hard to use.

Doing it directly in the DB without an intermediate layer locks you into a specific DB (and vendor).


I am not sure this can be avoided without complicating the code by taking your queries down to the lowest-common denominator and adding a bunch of cluttery wrappers. Plus using an OR-mapper locks you into the OR-mapper tool/vendor. You seem to be trading one lockage for another.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Snort.
Next you'll be claiming SQL is a "full-featured" programming language.

> You seem to be trading one lockage for another.

If you want to look at it that way. But there are some significant differences between the two:

Database:
1. Should be a commodity, but isn't due to vendor stubbornness.
2. Difficult to write (I don't mean the SQL, I mean the DB engine).
3. Extremely performance-critical code.
4. Monolithic in design.
5. Done to death, and yet
6. Significant differences between the implementations.

App framework:
1. Written in a high-level-language, so it's easier to maintain.
2. Open source--tweak to your heart's content.
3. Any given subsystem is easily wrappable if swapped out.
4. Open to experimentation, as different apps have different needs, and yet
5. Not an awful lot of difference between implementations.

I've considered swapping out templating engines, SQL mappers, object caches and indexers. None of those tasks seems particularly difficult. Have you noticed the core of Dejavu is only 1700 lines including inline documentation?

Seems I've got a good glue, not a lock.
New Re: Snort
(* Database: Should be a commodity, but isn't due to vendor stubbornness. *)

You can always write your own or use an open-source one. You don't have to worry about using SQL if you don't like it and just want small code.

(* Difficult to write (I don't mean the SQL, I mean the DB engine). *)

Perhaps if you didn't use SQL it would be smaller.

(* Extremely performance-critical code. *)

OR-mappers are not known to add speed to systems.

(* Monolithic in design. *)

Please explain this word. You keep using it.

(* app framework: Written in a high-level-language, so it's easier to maintain. *)

There are small RDBMS written in Java. I can't think of the name right now.

(* Open source--tweak to your heart's content. *)

There are multiple open source RDBMS. For example, MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQLite. Most are written in C I believe.

(* Any given subsystem is easily wrappable if swapped out. *)

I am not sure what you mean here.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New So now you're down on "skinny" tables?
What would make a table skinny? Properly normalizing it?

Just wondering,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
New Re: So now you're down on "skinny" tables?
From c2.com under DatabaseBestPractices: I am bothered by (1:1)-to-(0:1) relationships. It creates lots of skinny tables, more joins, and creates change-problems. For example, if managers have certain fields only for managers, but later *all* employees get some of the same perks, then moving those fields back into Employees instead of Managers creates headaches. Thus, I suggest keeping it all together.
________________
oop.ismad.com
     Have I mentioned lately that Python is BITCHIN??? - (FuManChu) - (167)
         The solution is to toss OO to begin with, not Python - (tablizer) - (166)
             Re: The solution is to toss OO to begin with, not Python - (admin) - (11)
                 not today -NT - (tablizer) - (2)
                     *BLAM BLAM* *VROOOOOooooommm.....* -NT - (pwhysall) - (1)
                         and when you do the same? -NT - (tablizer)
                 Bloat explanation - (tablizer) - (7)
                     Not what I meant. - (admin)
                     That's a very table-centric point of view - (FuManChu) - (5)
                         Of course. Tables rock. Code is ugly. - (tablizer) - (4)
                             Snort. - (FuManChu) - (1)
                                 Re: Snort - (tablizer)
                             So now you're down on "skinny" tables? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                 Re: So now you're down on "skinny" tables? - (tablizer)
             Not sure what you're pushing for. - (FuManChu) - (153)
                 Software engineering is gambling - (tablizer) - (152)
                     The only thing this app does is business modeling. -NT - (FuManChu) - (151)
                         I meant showing me code, not anecdotes -NT - (tablizer) - (150)
                             Ironic, considering how much code *you* have shown... -NT - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                 Wonder how the L Compiler is getting on? -NT - (pwhysall) - (6)
                                     It's Late. - (admin) - (5)
                                         I was wondering where the L it was. -NT - (pwhysall)
                                         The P game - (tablizer) - (3)
                                             Re: The P game - (admin) - (2)
                                                 you still have no evidence of betterment - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                     No, you compare it. - (admin)
                                 The burden of evidence is on you - (tablizer) - (1)
                                     And what claim did I ever make? - (ben_tilly)
                             Well, here's the thing - (FuManChu) - (139)
                                 Unicorns - (tablizer) - (138)
                                     OT: Have you been reading Groklaw tonight too? - (Another Scott)
                                     General description - (FuManChu) - (136)
                                         SQL wrapper? - (tablizer) - (135)
                                             Generic SQL wrapper API - (admin) - (30)
                                                 I see bloated people - (tablizer) - (29)
                                                     Er... - (admin) - (19)
                                                         re: Er... - (tablizer) - (18)
                                                             Nice attempt - (admin) - (17)
                                                                 re: Nice attempt - (tablizer) - (13)
                                                                     re: Nice attempt - (admin) - (12)
                                                                         Forgot to add: - (admin)
                                                                         Aieee! Actual code! HOW DARE YOU!!! -NT - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                                                             Making it interesting - (ChrisR) - (9)
                                                                                 Heh. I think Bryce would rather have someone else write it - (FuManChu)
                                                                                 Don't you know? - (Arkadiy)
                                                                                 Putting words in my mouth - (tablizer) - (6)
                                                                                     Actually, what you said was: - (admin)
                                                                                     Re: Putting words in my mouth - (admin)
                                                                                     Code Talks. Bryce Walks. - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                                                                         I shall consider it -NT - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                             Thanks. - (ChrisR)
                                                                                             If you don't... - (admin)
                                                                 RE: Are you willing to admit this yet? - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                                     Even OO fans are mixed about OR-mappers - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                         Looks pretty specific. - (admin)
                                                     In Dejavu, one would write: - (FuManChu) - (8)
                                                         Re: In Dejavu, one would write: - (JimWeirich) - (2)
                                                             An earlier version was like that. - (FuManChu) - (1)
                                                                 Forgot: code links - (FuManChu)
                                                         ICLRPD - (drewk)
                                                         Why learn and/or create another query language? - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                             In case you missed it: - (FuManChu) - (2)
                                                                 only for the trivial - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                     There are multiple ways of doing that... - (FuManChu)
                                             LCD *for my framework* - (FuManChu) - (103)
                                                 RDBMS > "data store" - (tablizer) - (102)
                                                     Re: RDBMS > "data store" - (admin) - (92)
                                                         still have not justified yet another tool/layers - (tablizer) - (91)
                                                             Re: still have not justified yet another tool/layers - (admin) - (90)
                                                                 before and after - (tablizer) - (89)
                                                                     Re: before and after - (admin) - (88)
                                                                         Then why have an OR-mapper middleman? -NT - (tablizer) - (87)
                                                                             Because: - (admin) - (86)
                                                                                 I forgot about query caching--a big part of my other app. -NT - (FuManChu)
                                                                                 Those are problems that OO introduces - (tablizer) - (84)
                                                                                     Re: Those are problems that OO introduces - (admin) - (83)
                                                                                         response - (tablizer) - (82)
                                                                                             Re: response 1 - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                 Looks like a lot of beurOOcracy to me - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                     Not claiming "victory" - (admin)
                                                                                                     Let's see your version, then. -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                                                             Re: response 2 - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                                 Re Re: response 2 - (tablizer) - (15)
                                                                                                     HQL is a superset of SQL - (admin) - (13)
                                                                                                         re: HQL is a superset of SQL - (tablizer) - (12)
                                                                                                             re: HQL is a superset of SQL - (admin) - (11)
                                                                                                                 Forced to use A to get B? Tsk tsk tsk. How MS of them. -NT - (tablizer) - (10)
                                                                                                                     You miss the point, anyway. - (admin) - (9)
                                                                                                                         I am not necessarily disagreeing with that here - (tablizer) - (8)
                                                                                                                             Re: I am not necessarily disagreeing with that here - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                                                                 not my burden of evidence - (tablizer) - (6)
                                                                                                                                     Wrong. - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                                                         exist != good - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                                                             Existence beats Non-Existence -NT - (ChrisR)
                                                                                                                                             I've already shown you. - (admin)
                                                                                                                                     Hm. So I can make any claim and force you to prove me wrong? - (FuManChu) - (1)
                                                                                                                                         Actually, what he said was: - (admin)
                                                                                                     Persistence vs. reporting - (admin)
                                                                                             Re: response 3 - (admin) - (55)
                                                                                                 Re Re: response 3 - (tablizer) - (54)
                                                                                                     Caching - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                         Re: caching - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                             Er, no it isn't. - (admin)
                                                                                                     Serial changes - (admin) - (50)
                                                                                                         "Bound" fields - (tablizer) - (49)
                                                                                                             No, no integration. - (admin) - (48)
                                                                                                                 re: No integration - (tablizer) - (47)
                                                                                                                     re: No integration - (admin) - (46)
                                                                                                                         So you want to see an Iwethey clone? - (tablizer) - (45)
                                                                                                                             I'd prefer you answer the points first. - (admin) - (44)
                                                                                                                                 We need code, not brochure-talk, to settle this - (tablizer) - (43)
                                                                                                                                     Re: We need code, not brochure-talk, to settle this - (admin) - (42)
                                                                                                                                         Is that part of iwethey? -NT - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                             Yes. -NT - (admin)
                                                                                                                                         questions and comments - (tablizer) - (39)
                                                                                                                                             Reading comprehension? - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                 What is your complaint? - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                     Why not eliminate everything that is only a bonus? - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                                                                             Then don't bother. - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                                                                                 Fine. It is not "bloated". Just unknown. - (tablizer) - (15)
                                                                                                                                                     That's all I needed. - (admin) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                         Probably not telling you anything you don't already know... - (ChrisR) - (5)
                                                                                                                                                             I take it you mean... - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                 Yep = That's what I meant - (ChrisR)
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Probably not telling you anything you don't already know - (JimWeirich) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                 My memory is too taxed - (ChrisR)
                                                                                                                                                                 Memory Lane - (tablizer)
                                                                                                                                                         re: That's all I needed. - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                             re: That's all I needed. - (admin)
                                                                                                                                                     Caching - (admin)
                                                                                                                                                     Login checks and declarative processing - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                         re: Login checks and declarative processing - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                             re: Login checks and declarative processing - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                 re re: Login checks and declarative processing - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Login checks and declarative processing (new thread) - (admin)
                                                                                                                                             I18N - (admin) - (18)
                                                                                                                                                 You are WRONG! - (tablizer) - (17)
                                                                                                                                                     My my, I touched a raw nerve, apparently. - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                                                                                         Grep is no substitute for clean, normalized data - (tablizer) - (15)
                                                                                                                                                             Re: Grep is no substitute for clean, normalized data - (admin) - (14)
                                                                                                                                                                 Depends on the scale - (tablizer) - (13)
                                                                                                                                                                     You've never used CVS either, have you? -NT - (FuManChu) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                         No, only MS sourcesafe -NT - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                             *shudder* - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                 Not my pickings -NT - (tablizer)
                                                                                                                                                                     Re: Depends on the scale - (admin) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                                         no no no - (tablizer) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                                             Re: no no no - (admin) - (6)
                                                                                                                                                                                 Doing my part to promote right shifting - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                                     "Oh goody, a new framework for xmas!" - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                         Re: "Oh goody, a new framework for xmas!" - (admin)
                                                                                                                                                                                     Internationalization (new thread) - (admin)
                                                                                                                                                                                 admin - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                     Resource files (new thread) - (admin)
                                                                                             Re: response 4 - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                 Lock-in is lock-in - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                     Query caching is a feature of JDBC - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                         Yes - (tablizer)
                                                                                             Re: response 5 - (admin)
                                                     Most of those are problems, not solutions. - (FuManChu) - (8)
                                                         intense DBA and RDBMS bashing - (tablizer) - (7)
                                                             ..heh. Only because they deserve it. ;) - (FuManChu) - (6)
                                                                 re: Only because they deserve it. - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                     I assume you already expect my response: - (FuManChu) - (4)
                                                                         I will agree that... - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                             I've never claimed that _every_ O-R mapper is chicken soup - (FuManChu) - (2)
                                                                                 Most people can at least read Python within 5 minutes. -NT - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                     Whatever -NT - (tablizer)

Most people are well aware that Steven Seagal is a master of martial arts and that his favorite place to find outfits is your grandmother’s tablecloth drawer.
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