Why I Only Lurk Here These Days

Post #155,505 by cwbrenn 5/17/04 3:22:34 PM Reply	Why I Only Lurk Here These Days There was the thread where Mike stated that in order to stop terrorism, I, my wife, my parents, and many of my friends needed to be murdered. That was nice. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #155,508 by Arkadiy 5/17/04 3:26:43 PM 5/17/04 3:30:16 PM Reply	Don't you know - people do such things _mostly_ for religious belifs. And our Mike is an atheist. So you are quite safe, really. Edit: [image\|/forums/images/warning.png\|0\|This is sarcasm...] -- Buy high, sell sober. Edited by Arkadiy May 17, 2004, 03:30:16 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #155,511 by cwbrenn 5/17/04 3:29:17 PM 5/17/04 3:29:40 PM Reply	Some athiests are the most fanatically religious people I know. In every way that counts. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young Edited by cwbrenn May 17, 2004, 03:29:40 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #155,514 by inthane-chan 5/17/04 3:33:09 PM Reply	Judge not by one member. Judge by the group response. Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Post #155,517 by cwbrenn 5/17/04 3:42:03 PM Reply	I didn't judge by one. That would be saying "If you want to know what IWETHEY is about, go read all of Marlowe's posts." But there were other luminaries who were willing to agree, mostly agree, or conspicuously quibble over other points: Ashton, Andrew, and Ben Tilly are three who immediately spring to mind. All of whom have claimed, in the past, to bear me no ill will. I have come to expect a rather noticeable current of hostility towards Christians on this board -- for the most part I ignore it, even though it is tiresome to be constantly called backward and ignorant and bigoted and all manner of other things by people who are, at least in theory, my peers. Perhaps I'm overracting, and "it's just the web," but I sort of draw the line when one of those peers says "the world would be better if every Christian in the world were dead, dead, dead," and a bunch of other peers chime in to say "well, you know, they are pretty universally useless." Well the world wouldn't be better for me. I'd just like to point out that one very important fact. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #155,519 by Nightowl 5/17/04 3:49:34 PM Reply	Wow.... Someone else feels the way I felt when I read that thread. Nightowl >8# "AHHHHH! Relatives coming out of the woodwork!!!!!!"
Post #155,521 by inthane-chan 5/17/04 3:54:03 PM Reply	You'll note... ...I didn't tell you which conclusion to draw. :) I've noticed that yes, there is a certain anti-"religious" bent - I don't believe it is targeted against Christianity specifically. I've also noticed that certain people (Al Qaeda, Ashcroft) who are not representative of a large portion of those religions are taking extreme hardline attitudes which are troublesome to those of us who have to deal with them outside of the framework of their beliefs. If it's the thread I think it is, Mike apologized later for his outburst. If not, then I've got the wrong thread, and I don't know what I'm talking about. And yes, there are indeed extremists in all organizations, whether they be political, religious, or otherwise. This tends to be more true in groups that feel they are under a great deal of pressure, whether or not the pressure really exists. I'd say these days a whole lot of groups are under a great deal of pressure, and the pressure will only increase by the "closeness" that world communications gives us. As for me, I'll continue believing that everybody has the right to believe what they will, as long as they don't attempt to enforce their belief structure on others. Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Post #155,539 by drewk 5/17/04 4:34:58 PM Reply	Hmm, interesting parallel I hadn't noticed before Some athiests are the most fanatically religious people I know. In every way that counts. I was going to reply to thane agreeing that I sense more of an anti-religious bent than a specifically anti-Christian one. One of the "rational" reasons for this, as I believe Ben has pointed out, is that once someone bases their morality on some external source, they really can't be swayed by any type of reason: what's right is right. This allows people to commit some truly heinous acts in service of their misguided beliefs. So even if some religion somewhere may actually be "right," it would be safer for society if people didn't base their morality on external sources. But to suggest that one's belief or actions should be based on what is safer is a typically evangelical tactic that atheists commonly refute. ie: "If you pray to a God and there is none, you haven't lost anything. But if you don't pray you risk eternal damnation." That doesn't really prove anything though. "If you base your morality on reason, you will end up living a good life. But if you base it on an external source you could end up killing people in the name of your God." That doesn't prove anything either. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #155,554 by Andrew Grygus 5/17/04 5:14:56 PM Reply	Now CRC is going to get all riled up again . . I had a long battle with him a couple years ago as to whether athieism is a religion - he maintains it is not with religious zeal. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #155,559 by drewk 5/17/04 5:21:18 PM Reply	Shares the trait of being internally consistent Religion: If it is right it is good. God defines right. Atheism: If it is good it is right. I define good. This, of course, is why the religious have often accused the irriligious of "elevating themselves to godhood." === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #155,564 by ChrisR 5/17/04 5:25:55 PM Reply	Generalization Religion: If it is right it is good. God defines right. Atheism: If it is good it is right. I define good. As a matter of course, most people don't live in these extremes. Religion, or lack thereof, are much more fluid concepts than either side wants to credit. I am reminded of the more recent work by the author of "Why People Believe Things" (or some such title). It was his conclusion that smart people don't necessarily believe things because they are rational, but rather they are better at rationalizing their beliefs once chosen.
Post #155,571 by drewk 5/17/04 5:35:47 PM Reply	Michael Shermer: Why People Believe Weird Things [link\|http://skeptic.com/b62pb.html\|Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time] [link\|http://skeptic.com/books.html\|More books] === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #155,573 by ben_tilly 5/17/04 5:37:11 PM Reply	"Why People Believe Weird Things" - by Michael Shermer To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #155,612 by Silverlock 5/17/04 8:20:17 PM 5/17/04 8:21:21 PM Reply	Heinlein said it best 'Man is not a rational animal. He is a rationalizing one.' ----------------------------------------- It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why? Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand. Mike Royko Edited by Silverlock May 17, 2004, 08:21:21 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #155,613 by Silverlock 5/17/04 8:20:25 PM 5/17/04 8:21:00 PM Reply	Dup. Ignore ----------------------------------------- It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why? Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand. Mike Royko Edited by Silverlock May 17, 2004, 08:21:00 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #155,561 by Ashton 5/17/04 5:22:11 PM Reply	Right.. we've had that one. Given the inadequacy of both atheism, agnosticism to er 'fully characterize' Anyone's actual POV -- I thought it was agreed that agnosticism [I Don't Know] was the neutral course, whereas ummm "accepting final 'proof' of a Negative?" - appears indistinguishable from its obverse, in the attitude of one's mentation. Oh well. Ashton
Post #155,570 by ben_tilly 5/17/04 5:35:10 PM Reply	Well, atheism is not a religion Atheists lack a particular kind of belief. Now there are many atheistic belief systems that share a lot with religion - enough to possibly be called religions. Two well-known ones are communism and a particularly literal belief in Science over all. However atheism is not a religion. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #155,585 by boxley 5/17/04 6:00:03 PM Reply	well it is a belief system with some more rabid followers than others, shares symbols much like a religion and has organized congregations. thanx,. bill Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #155,605 by ben_tilly 5/17/04 6:41:25 PM Reply	Excuse me? That's an interesting set of claims. Every one at odds with my understanding and experience. Care to expand on how atheism is a belief system, shares symbols, and has organized congregations? Perhaps it would clarify my position for me to say that atheism is to me no more a religion than monotheism or polytheism are religions. There are many things you could claim to be religions that fall into one of those 3 categories, but the category itself is not a religion. (Some belief systems fall into more than one, for instance wicca arguably falls into all three.) If you have concrete evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested in hearing it. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #155,606 by boxley 5/17/04 6:54:30 PM Reply	here ya go [link\|http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9860.htm\|http://www.positivea.../mail/eml9860.htm] darwin fish, American Atheists congregation symbal and the secular humanists symbol congregations where they worship together [link\|http://www.atheistalliance.org/aai/members.html\|http://www.atheistal.../aai/members.html] belief systems vary by believer just like other organized religons, some are more rabid than others, back when Nick declared himself an atheist and someone like yourself who I would almost hesitate to declare you as an absolute atheist but you clearly can demonstrate all of the rationals used. thanx, bill Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #155,608 by ben_tilly 5/17/04 7:06:32 PM Reply	I don't consider that example nearly sufficient (new thread) Created as new thread #155607 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=155607\|I don't consider that example nearly sufficient] To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #155,551 by Andrew Grygus 5/17/04 5:11:08 PM Reply	Re: I didn't judge by one. Bull. I have not called for your death or the death of your family - or any other broad class or group. I am on record for saying we would be better off without the three "revealed religions" because of their historically well proven tendency to repress and/or slaughter each other and members of any other faith or opinion. This has resulted in constant bloodshed. I have never called for the killing of members of these religions as an acceptable way to diminsh them, in fact, I recently called someone else on his opinion that Muslims should be killed indiscriminently. I continue to urge resistance against the fundamentalists in these religions because their prime objective is to supress my freedom to hold the opinions and beliefs I choose, and the near certainty they would eagerly kill those of all other faiths if they were allowed to, as they have done in the past and as all three are doing today in the Near East, Africa, Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand and elsewhere. I have stated there will likely come a mass slaughter of Islam but did not endorse this slaughter. I think it is a high probability because there is no strong moderate faction to hold the radicals in check - moderate is not allowed by Islam. Given the easy availability of WDMs, the radicals are likely to do something that will cause someone to turn Mecca into a glassy crater, and then all hell breaks loose. Currently moderate Jews and Christians are suspicious of their own fundamentalists and help to keep them in check. This is good, but the fundies still bear careful watching because they know how to leverage religious afinity with other Christian groups to get them to support things they don't really agree with. If your faith is so fragile you cannot stand up to the kind of pressure non-Christians have to stand up to all day every day, that is your problem, not mine. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #155,575 by cwbrenn 5/17/04 5:44:30 PM Reply	Ah yes, the old "We get death threats every day, it's about time you got yours!" rote. I don't get riled up when I see that kind of crap in any old forum. I do get riled up when I see it spewing out of people I reckon ought to know better. I can't believe Mike didn't realize that there were people he KNEW who he'd put on that oh-so-broad list... so all of a sudden I found myself categorized as "acceptable losses." What the fuck, Andrew? What the hell does that have to do with fragile faith? When did I ever call for Mike's death? I'm not talking about some religious nutjob you read about in the paper -- I'm talking about ME. Yes, that IS a lot more personal and it IS very different. But hey, I guess I deserve it somehow. How grand that I'm finally getting a taste of my own. And for the record, since your only participation in that thread was to support parts of Mike's original statement, I assumed by your silence that you were there simply to back him up. That may have been wrong but it is reasonable. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #155,567 by ben_tilly 5/17/04 5:31:40 PM Reply	Excuse me, why am I in that list? What are my stated opinions on religion? See posts like [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=155047\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=155047] to see them stated. Ah. Right. Religiously mandated violence is a symptom, not a cause. And I supported that with the example of one of the worst genocides in the 20'th century - done by people who were at least nominally atheistic. As for why I didn't say more in that thread, I long ago lost my taste for certain arguments about religion. I do not feel the need to speak on every issue where I have an opinion. But my silence should not generally be construed as agreement with any given position. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #155,578 by cwbrenn 5/17/04 5:48:00 PM Reply	You're right -- I owe you an apology I'm not sure why I got it in my head you were endorsing Mike's post. Again, I apologize. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #155,731 by mmoffitt 5/18/04 1:59:06 PM Reply	I am not an aethiest. (See for instance: [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=154989\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=154989]) bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #155,523 by boxley 5/17/04 4:00:15 PM Reply	the day a rabid commie upsets you as you can see by the baiting subject I am poking fun at Mike. There is a lot of Christian bashing in todays world, a lot of christians getting killed in parts of the world. Doesnt mean people have a personal issue with you, just a gnashing of their misunderstanding of others. Ben was truly set back by my view on Marriage and the State but we can agree that we passionately disagree on that and other subjects. It doesnt let my personal feelings be offended as all I would have to do to be unaffended is to troll elsewhere. Here you will get a thorough grilling on any given position and if I had more time I would play with Mike's statement about religion, since he hasnt responded to my first sally I suggest he is also busy. I would find it very interesting to see the pastoral response to his quotes from the manual so to speak. However the person doing so should be wearing flame retardant pants and do it out of duty rather than anger. Your voice is always rational here and welcome. thanx, bill Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #155,538 by ChrisR 5/17/04 4:33:47 PM Reply	Heck I don't even lurk the forums in question. I hate GWB and see no point in discussing politics. The war-on-terror is going fer shit - I don't need a weatherman to tell me which way the wind blows. The economy is stuck in neutral. And religion is an all consuming subject that I just don't have time to delve into justifying the beliefs of myself, nor those of others. And without these subjects, there's not much point to visiting the Flame forum. But as a fellow Christian, I would note that persecution and ridicule are not something that Christians have historically shied away from. How one reacts in these situations can have far reaching effects. St. Paul was stoned and imprisoned for his beliefs, and many an early Christian met with even worse fates. My own belief is that there are many things that are worth dying for. But killing is a totally different matter. There is a strain of pacifism that I'd like to see more of, both from the religious and non-religious. But then, this is the most I've discussed religion in these parts, so it'll probably be the last for a while as well.
Post #155,547 by Ashton 5/17/04 5:05:30 PM Reply	A phrase heard recently - "Today [we have arrived at the point where - nukes, etc.] the few can destroy the many". Spock might have some way of putting that.. but it appears to me that this is a true-enough summary of the actual dilemma faced by the rich (few) VS the many living in squalor.. all with their own Rushs to foment the most violent course possible, as each claims Righteousness + An Eye for an Aye. As to your taking personally and literally, the more hyperbolic of Massive Over-Generalizations [presumably made to illustrate a smaller point?] -- I submit that, calling oneself a "Christian" today is exactly equivalent in information content to, I am a member of the American People. It is meaningless, insofar as bin-L and friends make equivalent statements to being Muslim. There seems to be a Special-Christianity-of-One \| Islam-of-One for each individual, and with some characteristics shared by the countless warring sects. (This last provides the clan force for becoming insistent - amongst the other clans, I suppose.) Be upset if that's your style, but do try to notice that "claiming to be a Christian", gives no indication of one's actual behaviour (especially under stress, or when it's difficult to See Good, Be Good, Do Good etc.) Information content: ~0. IIRC the main assertion of the offending thread (if it was that thread) was the postulate that, overall -- organized religion not only does not aid in suppressing the periodic wars started by the old-rich, to be fought by the callow-poor. Almost always the reasons are the purely crass, self-aggrandizing aims of the rich/holy who launch such spasms via increasingly sophisticated propaganda/Lies: corporate 'religiosity' foments these wars, and has always done so. Rebuttals are always in order. Or you can fume in silence. No matter. None of our fulminations will instill an ounce of humility or a soup\ufffdon of Wisdom into those troglodytes orchestrating today's (or tomorrow's) dance towards ---> that nuclear suicide, which we commenced on July 16, 1945. Ashton whose concept of 'spirituality' has bloody Little to do with organized religiosity corporations; old or new. Label me an 'atheist' and I'll label you a misanthrope; not that the exercise would signify anything at all - except to make Confucius' point about the consequences of the destruction of Language itself.
Post #155,580 by pwhysall 5/17/04 5:53:52 PM Reply	Jesus H Christ On A Dead Gay Baby Seal Powered Moped! Chill out already. Ignore the silly shit, and talk pooters with us in Area 51. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #155,588 by boxley 5/17/04 6:04:56 PM Reply	seal oil makes a fair dinkum fuel aromatic odor fairly smokeless and about one baby seal per tank of moped, beats leaving the meat out to rot. thanx, bill Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #155,589 by ChrisR 5/17/04 6:05:57 PM Reply	Only an Alaskan could appreciate such things
Post #155,597 by jake123 5/17/04 6:17:02 PM Reply	I think a Newfie would well have an even greater appreciation for that sort of thing. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #155,599 by boxley 5/17/04 6:18:55 PM 5/17/04 6:20:01 PM Reply	dupe ignore Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Edited by boxley May 17, 2004, 06:20:01 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #155,600 by boxley 5/17/04 6:19:11 PM Reply	well why dont they use it? Pictures I have seen leave the carcasses on the ice. thanx, bill Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #155,601 by jake123 5/17/04 6:22:57 PM Reply	I'm not so sure about that AFAIK, mostly they get et, though it's possible that they take as much as they can reasonably expect to be able to eat, and leave the rest as seals also represent a cash crop. Still, it's possibly a good idea... though I can see what the various rabid animal fundies would do with the idea of rendering them down for their fuel oil. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #155,602 by boxley 5/17/04 6:24:40 PM Reply	render it locally as I am sure it would work in a deisel and I know the price of deisel for those boat motors is scary out there. besides they are already dead. thanx, bill Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #155,611 by FuManChu 5/17/04 8:00:30 PM Reply	A-freaking-men
Post #155,734 by mmoffitt 5/18/04 2:13:30 PM Reply	What are you thick or something? "Hyperbole" - Look it up. Then try to answer for your Holy Book's call to kill your neighbors (er, males only of course, you need their women for harlets). Or Jesus admonishing slaves to mind their masters. In short, read anything in Leviticus and try to defend it. See, you "corrupted" your religion and that's fine. No, actually that's great! My point was, and remains, that if you practice any of these ME based religions as written you are a danger to society. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #155,747 by cwbrenn 5/18/04 3:28:43 PM Reply	Oh, I forgot. Ha-ha, only jokin' guv, wot? ... Nope... guess I am, in fact, thick or something. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #155,771 by mmoffitt 5/18/04 5:15:37 PM 5/18/04 5:16:11 PM Reply	No, I wasn't joking. And no, I don't think you're thick... except that if you actually read that post and thought I was actually advocating killing you and your family, well, that was thick. I hope you don't read your religious texts as literally as you read my post. Edit: typo bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President. Edited by mmoffitt May 18, 2004, 05:16:11 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #155,921 by Nightowl 5/19/04 12:43:28 PM Reply	Well it seemed that way Talking about burning all the churches and mosques and etc, and wiping out every form of believer from jew to Christian, sure sounded like you meant it to me. Nightowl >8# "AHHHHH! Relatives coming out of the woodwork!!!!!!"
Post #155,925 by jake123 5/19/04 12:53:31 PM Reply	It could be satire I've heard true believers from all three of the faiths in question (judaism, christianity, and islam) say variants on the same statement. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #155,801 by andread 5/18/04 6:42:55 PM Reply	My .02 I like Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Rastas, etc. if they are sincere in their religion I am pretty sure that they are not breaking into my house, raping my wife or murdering my child If they believe that they are required to do any of those things they belong to another large group: the psychotic Psychosis has nothing to do with real religion A I have no problem with athiests or virgins or others who choose to miss out on things Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]

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