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New The Bottom line..
..is that these things are the direct outcome of the evolution of individual rights vs. royal prerogative in England, and in particular the right to be Protestant. It's practically a racial memory. This was embodied in the "Bill of Rights" and "Toleration Acts" of 1689, which were enacted after the abuses of the Catholic King James II. At the same time these rights were coming into being, the English prevented the King from simply dissolving Parliament at his whim, and set an election schedule that had to be strictly followed. It is no accident that our own Consitution follows this same pattern of strictly defining the form of government, as well as the intent in the Bill of Rights. The intent is clearly to keep government and religion apart, and so any amount of legal argumentation needed will be resorted to, to ensure that it happens.

Now the odd thing is, racial memories can fade. Just as important as church-state wall is the suspicion of standing armies and the right to bear arms in self-defense. This aspect of the issue has been all but forgotten.

-drl
New The footnotes to the bottom line...
First of all, well said...

Second, you write:
Now the odd thing is, racial memories can fade. Just as important as church-state wall is the suspicion of standing armies and the right to bear arms in self-defense. This aspect of the issue has been all but forgotten.


I think that perhaps the framers did not even consider that a man and a man would "want" to marry... Or that "Arms" would include scoped automatic machine guns... or that any religion other than Christianity... Or that women or non property owners would "want" to vote... Which kind of brings us back to your recent screeds...

And maybe, just maybe, there need to be a few more qualifying lines thrown into the "sacred scrolls"...
:-)
Just a few thoughts,

Danno
New Re: The footnotes to the bottom line...
As I write this, the Senate is voting on some 430 billion dollars for standing army funding. We should have better memories. Jefferson would have been horrified.

The wheels are clearly off the wagon at this point. Wrangling over intent is pointless - the intent is clear. In the days of Jefferson the point was to make it possible for people to be free and productive and uncoerced by the State, however the latter was embodied. The idea that a person could act willy-nilly in any way he deemed fit would never have occured to them as something worth thinking about.
-drl
New Jefferson is spinning like a rotisserie chicken in his grave
But I've been saying that since 1980. I would have been saying it since 1960 had I been born (was born in late '61 after the fall). Adlai was the last man who understood, the Democratic party and all that followed were in the shadow of RFK and that ilk... Ashcroft is a lightweight in comparison.

I can hear the echoes of my own voice (especially during election years), but damnit, the party is irrelevent anymore. We (TFPeople) are no longer invited to "the party". That is the problem as I see it. The party sells us the President (choose flavor a or b) the same way that they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us everything from youth to religion at the same time they sell us our wars. But their are lives in the balance (plagarized from Jackson Browne).

For a country that is so "legalistic" we sure as hell are not very well versed on law, justice, or equality. Or democracy. DRL, you are not alone. As I've said to Ash, I've just taken the next logical leap. It's not pretty 'cause I don't have any room for optimism.
Dan


God is a concept
By which we measure
Our pain
I'll say it again
God is a concept
By which we measure
Our pain

I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
I don't believe in Beatles
I just believe in me
Yoko and me
And that's reality

The dream is over
What can I say?
The dream is over
Yesterday
I was the Dreamweaver
But now I'm reborn
I was the Walrus
But now I'm John
And so dear friends
You'll just have to carry on
The dream is over

J. Lennon - The Dream is Over
     I am trying to understand seperation of church and state - (orion) - (106)
         Your religion must be dead for 1000 years - (altmann)
         You found it. - (inthane-chan) - (67)
             a few nits - (danreck)
             Aw, what the hell... - (danreck) - (65)
                 How I read it - (orion) - (64)
                     You also have to look up the 14th amendment - (ChrisR) - (9)
                         Thanks for that - (orion) - (8)
                             Religious freedom is an individual's right... - (ChrisR) - (7)
                                 The way I see it - (orion) - (6)
                                     Getting off into gay marriages? - (ChrisR) - (5)
                                         Sorry I brought it up - (orion) - (4)
                                             Why did the blood tests go away? - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                 Test have not gone away everywhere and it is not because of - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                                     That link didn't work in mozilla :-( - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                         I had the same problem w/Moz. - (a6l6e6x)
                     This is why the law applies - (JayMehaffey) - (4)
                         Court rooms - (orion) - (3)
                             The legislature enacts the laws, - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                 Still more questions - (orion) - (1)
                                     Re: Still more questions - (JayMehaffey)
                     The phrase you are looking for verbatim - (Ashton) - (2)
                         Sort of "read between the lines" - (orion) - (1)
                             NO.. - (Ashton)
                     I think you are reading it quite accurately... - (danreck)
                     You could speculate or... - (ben_tilly) - (44)
                         Causes even more confusion - (orion) - (43)
                             Secular isn't vague. - (pwhysall) - (33)
                                 By that reasoning then... - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                     I didn't reason at all. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                         Do try to keep up, willya? - (ben_tilly)
                                 Not what the dictionary says - (orion) - (29)
                                     Oh yes it is. - (pwhysall) - (28)
                                         That's not a proper Engrish dictionary - (ChrisR) - (27)
                                             Which is in which country (hint hint)? -NT - (pwhysall) - (26)
                                                 United Kingdom? -NT - (ChrisR) - (24)
                                                     "United Kingdom of A, B, C and D E" - (pwhysall) - (23)
                                                         Araq? -NT - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                                             /me pulls the IFS lever. -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                             Beeria, Crikey, Disrael, and Effinghanistan -NT - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                 You've won a free IFS! -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                         Anglos, Berbers, Chinese and Damned Europeans? -NT - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                             My IFS machine is busy tonight... -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                         Arrogant Bastards with Crappy Dictionary Examples? -NT - (admin) - (14)
                                                             STAB! -NT - (pwhysall) - (13)
                                                                 Ah... - (admin) - (12)
                                                                     Administrative Boofheads Continually Defy Elegance -NT - (pwhysall) - (11)
                                                                         WOBAFGKMRNS - (deSitter) - (10)
                                                                             Re: WOBAFGKMNRS - (admin) - (9)
                                                                                 you get a gold star -NT - (deSitter) - (8)
                                                                                     Not much of a stretch. - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                         hmm go back? exciting times for astronomy -NT - (deSitter) - (6)
                                                                                             Two reasons: - (admin) - (5)
                                                                                                 Sheeat - (deSitter) - (4)
                                                                                                     Or Scott could just get his son to teach him... -NT - (inthane-chan) - (2)
                                                                                                         I'm sure Scott can handle it - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                                                             joke == missed. :D -NT - (inthane-chan)
                                                                                                     You make an assumption... - (admin)
                                                         Without googling - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                             You are correct! - (pwhysall)
                                                 In which country is the law in question being examined? - (orion)
                             The Bottom line.. - (deSitter) - (3)
                                 The footnotes to the bottom line... - (danreck) - (2)
                                     Re: The footnotes to the bottom line... - (deSitter) - (1)
                                         Jefferson is spinning like a rotisserie chicken in his grave - (danreck)
                             I didn't say that it was simple - (ben_tilly)
                             Makes me wonder... - (Nightowl) - (3)
                                 They don't make you - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                     True, but what I really meant - (Nightowl) - (1)
                                         Well, apply the Lemon test - (ben_tilly)
         It started with the Roman Empire. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
             A fallacy in your argument - (orion)
         funny you should ask - (rcareaga) - (12)
             in one area of the article, only half is revealed - (boxley) - (7)
                 and this "agriculture" stuff - (rcareaga) - (1)
                     You know, if you have to choose... - (ben_tilly)
                 Actually, less than half is revealed - (jb4) - (3)
                     China is far more advanced in this area. - (a6l6e6x)
                     When I was there - (lincoln) - (1)
                         The problem is an expired contract... - (jb4)
                 Bought/sold :-0___ you mean like IT workers? -NT - (Ashton)
             bRandishment - (Ashton) - (3)
                 for every blowdried3piecesuitlimoowning preacher - (boxley) - (2)
                     And those sammich-handing-out ones remain silent as - (Ashton) - (1)
                         nope, in their view meek get sh*t -NT - (boxley)
         Look no further than the first phrase of the first amendment - (ChrisR)
         Re: I am trying to understand seperation of church and state - (JayMehaffey)
         Also a key point that nobody else is pointing out... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
             The effect is nonlinear - - (Ashton)
         It goes back to Jefferson. - (Another Scott) - (9)
             Which goes back to the pilgrims, IIRC - (Steve Lowe) - (2)
                 Right - (deSitter) - (1)
                     Interesting sidenote - (deSitter)
             Vauge language - (orion) - (5)
                 Um, all speech and writing is subject to interpretation. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                     You b*3tard... - (danreck) - (1)
                         Not meant to cause offense. - (Another Scott)
                 Not in the current context - (deSitter) - (1)
                     Your interpritation - (orion)
         Can't take the time for an appropriate clue bashfest - (Silverlock) - (2)
             If you cannot answer the question - (orion) - (1)
                 I'm not sure what your question actually is. - (Silverlock)
         sepArate <<<_______grating, that___over and over and___ -NT - (Ashton) - (4)
             Perhaps that explains why the search came up empty? -NT - (ChrisR) - (3)
                 16,300 hits in Google. :-/ -NT - (Another Scott) - (2)
                     Did you mean: separation of church and state? - (ChrisR) - (1)
                         Yup. ;-) - (Another Scott)

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