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New My eyes - they BURN!
NOT!

I don't need to see it. I would like someone to publish an extract of some of the funnier comments though.


The tree of research must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of bean counters.
     -- Alan Kay
New comments
Your desire is but a [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/15/71552/7795|click away]...
Have fun,
Carl Forde
New I'm still hoping some brave hero goes after it with grep...
...and looks for GPL'ed code.
"I'll stop calling this crew 'Orwellian' when they stop using 1984 as an operations manual." - J. Bradford DeLong
New Agree about grep, and some observations
Me too. Maybe it will happen someday...What are some of the things you would grep for?

Personally, I highly doubt that _directly lifted_ GPL'd code is in the OS source. The _apps_ though...Here are 3 things on which I base this statement.

First: At the last sqlserver UG (that's not an ms official thing but is hosted at ms, and usually has a presentation from an ms guy), an ms guy demo'd a new sqlserver reporting bit. One of the options is to save a report to pdf. Somebody asked if adobe code were included. With an expression that was either "i'm repulsed" or "there's something i'm not going to tell you," he said "no, there's no adobe code here." I believe _that_...but perhaps something like Xpdf? Speculation, but it was very interesting.

Oh, another bit that has nothing to do with GPL code but is an example of "An ms partner is a victim they haven't fucked yet": As I watched the d/p show, I started thinking "Crystal Reports for Windows." Somebody asked if there was a "feature for feature comparison" between the 2. Let the tapdancing begin. "Um, well, we get into this weird partner thing, cause Crystal is a partner [visual studio has crystal bits, properly credited]. So, no, we haven't officially done that, but we invite you to do one for yourself."

Second interesting bit: There's a fairly new directive at ms that has been distributed beyond the coders. If any open source comes up in a meeting, ms folk are supposed to immediately get up and leave the room. I have no way of telling if this is behavior of the guilty, behavior of the paranoid, or both. I suspect both.

Third interesting bit: If you want to predict what the next version of IE is going to innovate, watch the opensource browsers. So, Konqueror had cookie management (probably moz too but i wasn't using that then). Moz has popup blocking, now about to be innovated into IE7 or whatever the hell they're going to call it. Eagerly awaiting tabbed browsing. So, ms has stated that there's no significant devwork on ie, _but_ in addition to the constant bugfixes, there's an awful lot of open-source-already-did feature additions.

This is of course circumstantial evidence and personal speculation and proves nothing. I realize that, but these are a few of the reasons I think that the apps are the place to look for GPL's code.
WWJD? JWRTFM.
New Clean room implementation
Just because Mozilla comes up with a feature and MS soon follows, doesn't mean that source code is being usurped. Typical in such cases is to have two groups. One group looks at the source and the behavior of the program and documents how the program works. The second group then takes those documents and implements them in a clean room.
New I should clarify that point
You're right of course. All I meant by my post was that if I were looking for GPL code, I'd check the apps before I'd check the OS. I also wanted to tell the story about the tapdancing; it was really fun to watch, and rather instructional.

I would be amazed if any code were lifted and placed into IE. I would be a bit surprised, though, if when MS implements something that's already been done already, and they can get source to look at, they don't look. Which is OK.
WWJD? JWRTFM.
New Xpdf Trivia
Apparently, you can commercially license the otherwise GPLed XPdf:

[link|http://www.glyphandcog.com/|http://www.glyphandcog.com/]
--
Chris Altmann
New Re: Xpdf Trivia
I didn't know that, thanks for clarifying. I bet they didn't license it though, I bet they rolled their own. I can't imagine reverse engineering it from scratch; if I were tasked with writing a library to create PDFs, I'd sure check out OpenOffice and see how they did it. Without stealing code, I'd see what things have to be done and then write my own implementation.
WWJD? JWRTFM.
New If I were to roll my own
I'd prefer to work from the spec (which I've read). Its pretty straightforward what needs doing - its just that there's a lot to do. Its a big spec.


The tree of research must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of bean counters.
     -- Alan Kay
New I've certainly learned a few things about pdf's
didn't know it was licensable, didn't know there's published spec.

This doesn't look as interesting as it did last week.
WWJD? JWRTFM.
New PDF is free
as long as you abide by the terms of the license. Mostly the license says that Adobe owns the standard and you need to abide by the standard. More particularly, you are supposed to respect the encryption and read/write rights set in the document.

I've been rolling my own pdf docs of late because I couldn't find a library that was (a) free and (b) handled large drawings gracefully. Fairly easy to generate pdf once you get used to it. The spec is large, but my application is fairly narrow, so I don't need the overhead of a general purpose library. I can actually generate pdf faster than I can generate html.
New Any recommendations (following in your steps)?
Love to hear the route you took. I could stand to write some custom PDF tools myself.
New Always the tortorous route
Here's some starter links:
  • [link|http://partners.adobe.com/asn/tech/pdf/specifications.jsp|Official PDF Specifications]
  • [link|http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.15/15.09/PDFIntro/|Intro #1]
  • [link|http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wilensky/CS294/lectures/PDF6topage.pdf|Intro #2]
  • [link|http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?WebPageID=63|Intro #3]
  • [link|http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/189858|Python Text-to-PDF]

Beyond that, I could give some explanations in the scripting conference if you're game. I still need to figure out some things like how to pack a gif image in the file (jpegs are easy). So perhaps once you're up to speed you can return the favor.
New Thanks! It may be a while on returning the favor... ;)
New Re: PDF is free
Right, think ps is this way as well.

Microsoft: "We are shitty developers but we hide our formats. Pay up."

Adobe: "He's the format, good luck, but we've already solved a lot of problems for you, in case you want to buy something that already works that is. Oh, here's a free full-featured viewer as well. And over here, we have this entire DP setup for everything from A to Z. Did we mention our software is not tied to Windows? And we are nice people as well! Thank you for using PDF!"
-drl
New Adobe NOT nice. Sklyarov ring a bell?
-----
Steve
New Re: Adobe NOT nice. Sklyarov ring a bell?
That had to be an aberration. I've dealt with Adobe tech support, they were unbelieveably nice. Their products are great and they work. In this world what more can you ask?
-drl
New Are you defining a custom reality again?
Just because some aspects of a company (or person) are good doesn't mean that others can't be very bad (from your point of view).

I see no evidence that Skylarov was any sort of aberration for Adobe. Being nice is a strategic choice for them, which means that being not-nice is also a strategic choice.
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Expand Edited by ben_tilly Feb. 20, 2004, 02:32:01 PM EST
New Re: Are you defining a custom reality again?
Have you ever bought an eBook from Adobe? Clearly this was one aspect of the company in some kind of sideline activity. And the case was prosecuted on behalf of the government, not Adobe:

[link|http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/us_v_elcomsoft_faq.html#ChargedWith|http://www.eff.org/I....html#ChargedWith]

Could it be that the government ran amok in a stupid misidentification of this issue as one of "furriners stealin' our 'Merkin sawftware"? At some point Adobe may have been told "stay out of it, this is bigger than you".

He was acquitted, and apparently the issue is decided.

Edit: Apparently Adobe wanted to drop the case five days after Skylarov was arrested. The government declined. The villians are where they always are - in charge.

Dmitry Sklyarov was arrested in Las Vegas on July 16, 2001, and charged with trafficking in, and offering to the public, a software program that could circumvent technological protections on copyrighted material, under section 1201(b)(1)(A) of the U.S. Copyright Act, which was made law by the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act (the DMCA). He was also charged with aiding and abetting his employer, Russian software development company, Elcom Ltd (a.k.a. ElcomSoft Co. Ltd), to do that. Dmitry was held in jail until August 6, 2001, when he was released on bail of $50,000, on condition that he remained in Northern California.
......
After EFF met with Adobe representatives on 20 July, Adobe joined with the EFF in recommending the release of Dmitry from federal custody, and withdrew its support for the criminal complaint against him. [Joint Press Release].

Clearly the government ran amok because they don't understand software or information technology. What else is new?
-drl
Expand Edited by deSitter Feb. 20, 2004, 03:12:30 PM EST
New I remember the history there
Adobe requested the lawsuit and was originally involved. Then they got picketed to hell, and after a month of pressure, they took their name off of the lawsuit.

The government continued prosecuting the case. Whether or not this was at Adobe's private request is an open question. Publically Adobe requested that the lawsuit be dropped.

Lemme google for some links.

[link|http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/us_v_elcomsoft_faq.html|http://www.eff.org/I...lcomsoft_faq.html]
[link|http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/20010707_complaint.html|http://www.eff.org/I...07_complaint.html]
[link|http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/20010723_eff_adobe_sklyarov_pr.html|http://www.eff.org/I..._sklyarov_pr.html]

In my books, Adobe does not get a free ride for having dropped out of the case that they requested be brought. If they establish a pattern of "good behaviour", then my opinion of them will change, but until I've been convinced that they are now against the DMCA etc, they remain grey at best in my books. Sometimes my interests align with theirs (they have no reason to like the dominance of Microsoft), and sometimes now (see comments about the DMCA).

Of course I doubt that they care much what I think. (Except in so far as I find myself in a position to recommend or not recommend their software.)

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New On Adobe support.
I discovered a fairly major flaw in Acrobat Reader 5+6 late last year. Called Adobe, told them I was calling in a bug report, they wanted to charge *me* to report a bug.

Imagine that.

Now we're using GhostScript and GSView, and my, do they work fine at the exact same thing.
"I'll stop calling this crew 'Orwellian' when they stop using 1984 as an operations manual." - J. Bradford DeLong
New Re: On Adobe support.
That's funny, I reported a bug in FrameMaker while we were under a deadline to produce a document, and they shipped us a fixed copy overnight on their dime.

Your mileage may vary.
-drl
New What a coinkydink
I just installed gsview about a half hour ago. I was prompted by acroread suddenly ceasing to function, and a combination of the skylarov case and that amazingly intrusive splash screen made me look for something else. Never going back.


WWJD? JWRTFM.
New Re: What a coinkydink
You will if you want to publish math papers. GS has weird font behavior.
-drl
New Noted. I did notice that the fonts aren't as pretty.
WWJD? JWRTFM.
New ps is not free
But they are very similar. This is a big part of why Apple pitched Display PostScript and implemented Display PDF for their graphics rendering technology. The DPS license fees were killing them.


The tree of research must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of bean counters.
     -- Alan Kay
New Have you checked out openoffice for pdf's?
I have not yet. I'd be curious to hear if you've tried it. What prompted you to roll your own?
WWJD? JWRTFM.
New My requirements are on the server side
and I'm not sure how well openoffice would perform converting pages in that environment. Biggest problem I have is that my drawings can get very large, being many pages long and wide. Most of the software I looked at could handle the variable length but always wanted to chop off anything too wide.

So, for the sake of getting the document chopped up like I wanted (as well as efficiency), I just decided to reverse engineer pdf as best as i could.
New More curiosity: what language?
WWJD? JWRTFM.
New Any scripting language will do
But I'd prefer to shift any conversation along these lines to the [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=143160|Scripting Forum].
     Looked at the windows source? - (Steve Lowe) - (30)
         My eyes - they BURN! - (tuberculosis) - (29)
             comments - (cforde)
             I'm still hoping some brave hero goes after it with grep... - (inthane-chan) - (27)
                 Agree about grep, and some observations - (rickw) - (26)
                     Clean room implementation - (ChrisR) - (1)
                         I should clarify that point - (rickw)
                     Xpdf Trivia - (altmann) - (23)
                         Re: Xpdf Trivia - (rickw) - (22)
                             If I were to roll my own - (tuberculosis) - (21)
                                 I've certainly learned a few things about pdf's - (rickw) - (20)
                                     PDF is free - (ChrisR) - (19)
                                         Any recommendations (following in your steps)? - (FuManChu) - (2)
                                             Always the tortorous route - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                 Thanks! It may be a while on returning the favor... ;) -NT - (FuManChu)
                                         Re: PDF is free - (deSitter) - (11)
                                             Adobe NOT nice. Sklyarov ring a bell? -NT - (Steve Lowe) - (9)
                                                 Re: Adobe NOT nice. Sklyarov ring a bell? - (deSitter) - (8)
                                                     Are you defining a custom reality again? - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                         Re: Are you defining a custom reality again? - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                             I remember the history there - (ben_tilly)
                                                     On Adobe support. - (inthane-chan) - (4)
                                                         Re: On Adobe support. - (deSitter)
                                                         What a coinkydink - (rickw) - (2)
                                                             Re: What a coinkydink - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                 Noted. I did notice that the fonts aren't as pretty. -NT - (rickw)
                                             ps is not free - (tuberculosis)
                                         Have you checked out openoffice for pdf's? - (rickw) - (3)
                                             My requirements are on the server side - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                 More curiosity: what language? -NT - (rickw) - (1)
                                                     Any scripting language will do - (ChrisR)

Yeah, baby!
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