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New Downward spiral?
.. *that of, increasing numbers of gunshot wounds* and in other context too.

How could a decreasing (official) 'crime rate' be thought the referent for That?

(and that official 'crime rate' hardly even has a slot for 'Corporate crime' - does it? Maybe for the individual embezzler - but not the overall organization) SO is there ? a "decline in the crime rate" - or just in certain limited, older categories of 'crime'?

Downward spiral in quality of life, then. (despite upward spiral? in acquisition of toys? and hours worked/day, etc.) Lots of eddies in that whirlpool. No possibility of listing such in tabular form, is there?

When 30% (this AM's number - from no full recitation of the entire source database) of Murican workers are earning <= $8/hr, and Maquiladores are moving Norte: now around LA, around NYC and elsewhere - I would call that a significant component of a 'spiral' comprised of many more er 'issues'. A slogan won't capture "downward spiral" in its full complexity, natch.
I think a more logically consistent position for you to take, given the facts and your apparent inclinations, is to question whether the apparent "safety" brought about by widespread personal firearm posession is a safety you wish to endure.

I think it should be easy enough to draw a parallel between the increased security of a surveillence state and the increased safety of a well-armed populace. This argument aligns pro-gun-rights advocates with pro-surveillence advocates in supporting a system shown to reduce crime, but which carries a perceived social cost.
Rephrasing is always fun - but apparently not even with the aid of Ben Franklin's pithiest summary of all: is it clear that I have been saying that from the first. Pick the translation you like.

Or another: the social cost of 'this means of personal safety' is not only measurable in the bloody stats du jour - but it is larger IMO, in the not-so easily measured: social mindset of being eternally ready for Fight/Flight. From strangers, neighbors - All 'other' people.

Not impossible to measure the mental outlook, just not reducible to neat figures on spreadsheets: look at the 'social drugs' being pimped on the Tee Vee (in one - a crowd at a party morphs to grotesque Hostility = Buy Our Pill\ufffd). It is seen in the general and unprecedentedly high usageof chemicals daily, Rx and OTC and casual and home-grown.

Somehow I do not see how 'being armed' has much helpful going for it - as an even 'stopgap solution' - within a culture so mangled that, increasing numbers of people will take Anything to try and alter their daily emotional state, their experience of these living conditions. Hey! it's been on IWETHEY too. Lots over the years. Add-in young people suiciding at also accelerating rates. What's the opposite of healthy?

Unless: for those who have given up on it all, a la the Hollywood disaster flics - then of course, in (Escape From) THAT New York - best have a brace o'Glocks and also: get out quick as you can.

See? it's about the atmosphere not about the average weight of 9mm dum-dums. Logic helps - emotional sense or reason is ever so much harder to achieve, especially within the paranoid style of Murican politics (actual book title - dead-on too).


Ashton
New But which is the "reasonable" fear?
I believe most people are basically good. This is supported by the fact that of the hundreds of people I meet on a weekly basis, none yet have tried to rob me. (Talking physical "gimme your wallet" robbery, here.) Though many of them easily could, it just doesn't happen.

So which is the greater fear: That the rare bad seed will attack and you can't defend yourself; or that one of the multitude of basically good people, when newly armed, suddenly becomes a criminal? I believe the first is much more likely, but fear neither situation so much that I personally exercise my right to be armed. If I had to live in certain neighborhoods, though, that might change.

Thinking about this, I realized there a three situations where my thinking is roughly parallel: surveillence, gun control, and helmets. All three are limits on my personal freedom -- I accept the argument that pervasive surveillence infringes on my personal freedom, so Addison and I disagree on that point -- but with different secondary effects.

I'll tackle helmets first, because my position is most unambiguous. Helmet laws are intended to protect me from myself. I absolutely disagree with the intent. I should be free to risk my own safety in any way that doesn't affect other people. I don't accept that possible higher medical costs may be borne by society, as some studies indicate for every extra head injury as a result of not wearing a helmet, there is an extra DOA that would otherwise have been a head injury. (If we're going to do actuarial analysis, we have to include all the costs.) But, even though there is no helmet law here, in Ohio, or in my previous rsidence, California, I always wore one. Because I evaluated the risks and made my own choice.

Surveillence removes my sense of freedom, if not actual freedom. What I get in return is the (supposed) guarantee that the operators will protect me from harm, or at the least that many misdeeds will not be committed because the potential perpetrators will also know about the cameras. But then I have to trust the government and the police to be absolutley scrupulous in their use of the system, and to never use it to extend their power beyond what they already have. Needless to say, I don't trust the government that far, nor do I think I should.

Gun control -- or rather gun prohibition ("Gun control is hitting what you're aiming at.") -- is advocated in the supposition that I will be safer if no one has guns. Leaving aside the impossibility of totally removing guns from society, and completely ignoring that one of the purposes of the 2nd Ammendment was to allow the populace to protect themselves from the government, this still assumes that the police would be better able to protect me from unarmed (with guns) criminals than I would be to defend myself.

Most gun control advocates also point to the statistics of people who harm themselves with guns, or to children who gain access to them. All of these (that I have heard) have been cases of people improperly handling and storing guns. Yes, this happens, but not to me. If you want to play Russian roulette, or just store the gun under your bed, feel free.

You also point to the societal cost of the constant seige mentality. I live in the same world you do, but I don't have that mentality. I worked hard to get to a point where I can live in a fairly safe neighborhood. I know several of my neighbors have guns in their homes, but I'm not afraid of any of them. In fact, one of my neighbors shot two intruders in his home several years ago and there hasn't been a robbery on our street since then. Of course, that might also be because we have three police offiers living on our street, all of whom have weapons in their homes. I once lived on a military base, literally surrounded by weapons -- big ones, little ones, you name it. I never felt safer.

So if the only, or the main, argument against the right of individuals to carry guns is that some people are uncomfortable with the knowledge that someone they pass on the street may be carrying, I have to say that isn't compelling enough to convince me.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
New Re: But which is the "reasonable" fear?
I accept the argument that pervasive surveillence infringes on my personal freedom, so Addison and I disagree on that point -- but with different secondary effects.

Hey hey hey, that's not what I said.

I said it wasn't unconstitutional, nor illegal. And that we needed legistlation to define "personal privacy" and "freedom"... And without that, I really couldn't produce anything that would show pervasive surveillance (of everybody, in public places) that was "wrong" or illegal.

I'm certainly *not* advocating it, and I wouldn't particularly like it. (But for instance, it wouldn't stop me travelling to England)

Helmet laws are intended to protect me from myself. I absolutely disagree with the intent. I should be free to risk my own safety in any way that doesn't affect other people.

Yes and no.

The issue with helmets, and seat belts, and such, is that you *aren't* just talking about yourself. That we live in a community, with shared resources, and you not using such safty devices puts a strain on said infrastructure, *and* impacts other people.

Which is a helluva argument. But that's the basis for it. (at least, IMO, the "legitimate" argument). (There *are* people who want to protect you from yourself, but right now they're busy trying to take our guns away. :))

I was in an auto accident about 10 years ago. Foggy night. I was driving 30, 35, on an unfamilar road, and went through a stop sign. Saw it less than 1/2 a second before I passed it, and hesitated just a fraction before hitting the brake (wondering if it would be better to go through). Too late. Another car and mine had their vectors converge and merge. The 2 people in that car weren't wearing their seat belts. They were doing 70ish.

As it turns out, when I was sued for wrongful death, the fact they weren't wearing seat belts didn't matter. Nor did it matter that they were going far faster than I. Because *I* went through the traffic control device, 100% of the accident was my fault.

But had they been wearing their seat belt (as I was), they wouldn't have been severely hurt. (The driver wasn't hurt badly, as he had the steering wheel to stop him).

And so everyone in my insurance pool helped me "pay" for that. The infrastructure was stressed (that night they were being run all over) trying to get rescue teams to our location. Had say, a fire broken out, a farther away squad would have had to made their way to it - through the fog.

*THAT* becomes the conundrum with safety devices. Its *not* merely a question of "it only affects you". It doesn't, it affects more people than that.

Additionally, with the legal system we have, blame MUST be assigned. Think about the opporunities you [could have] had, 100 years ago, to do the damage that you and I can do, on a daily basis now. (say, looking down for a second, and crashing into a school bus going the other way?).

I don't say that to say you're wrong, but to mention it as another topic of discussion (which really doesn't belong in this thread) :)

That its an attempt to provide accountability, and responsibility to people, such that they lessen the impact (no pun intended) on the rest of us. And its more complicated than saving you from yourself. (Another note of mention - apparently people drive *More unsafely* when they're buckled in - they feel safer).

Addison
New Heh.. find self in basic agreement with Both of you,here:-\ufffd
     LP Release: Doctors &amp;amp;amp; Guns - (Fearless Freep) - (46)
         Ain't that the truth. -NT - (bepatient)
         Funny how.. - (Ashton) - (11)
             Maybe I missed the joke. - (addison) - (10)
                 Er.. 'victims' Meant: of the non-policed MDs - (Ashton) - (9)
                     Noise levels - (mhuber) - (7)
                         Or maybe... Conspiracy!! to off gun-owners! - (Ashton) - (6)
                             When you say it like that.... - (addison) - (5)
                                 It's called______satire. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                     Believe me, I understand satire. - (addison) - (3)
                                         A couple of points - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                             Why restrict to wheeled projectiles? - (Ashton)
                                             I rode that - (drewk)
                     Its a contextual issue. - (addison)
         The IoM report is here. - (Another Scott) - (1)
             Re: Nurses giving the wrong meds - (drewk)
         Reply from the DSGL - (addison) - (30)
             Swell.. yawn. But you still don't get the irony? - (Ashton) - (29)
                 Yes, I *get* the irony. The Irony is that you don't. :) - (addison) - (28)
                     Polarization is so easy. Thus popular. - (Ashton) - (27)
                         Sorry, but that's not consistent - (drewk) - (5)
                             Downward spiral? - (Ashton) - (3)
                                 But which is the "reasonable" fear? - (drewk) - (2)
                                     Re: But which is the "reasonable" fear? - (addison) - (1)
                                         Heh.. find self in basic agreement with Both of you,here:-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton)
                             Except... - (addison)
                         Which has nothing at all to do with this subject. - (addison) - (20)
                             While it all 'has to do with this subject' - our filters - (Ashton) - (11)
                                 No, Ash, it doesn't. - (addison)
                                 Let us parse, despite the 90\ufffd polaroid filter pair: - (Ashton) - (9)
                                     180 Degrees apart. - (addison) - (3)
                                         Uhh... - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                             yup, dont see many fist fights - (boxley)
                                             Re: Uhh... - (addison)
                                     Well Addison, you make your points here well enough that, - (Ashton) - (4)
                                         Thank you. Let me try to make at least one more. - (addison) - (3)
                                             En passant - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                 I believe your anger is misplaced. - (addison) - (1)
                                                     camels nose under the tent :) - (boxley)
                             Could be, but I doubt it. - (CRConrad) - (7)
                                 Its not fear. - (addison) - (6)
                                     A couple of points... - (CRConrad) - (5)
                                         The irony continues. :) - (addison) - (4)
                                             Oh, bullshit. - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                 No. - (addison) - (2)
                                                     OK.. is it alright to change the scale, now? - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                         Precis: - (pwhysall)

It’s the extra touches.
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