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New Some things I want out of a language
#1 Something I can use to create programs with that doesn't run in a VM that bogs it down or use an Interpriter or whatever. I want something that runs fast.

#2 Something I can adapt to. I already have C Language skills, and I am a bit rusty with them. I am trying to write simple C programs and am having difficulty, but I am relearning.

#3 Unlike Bryce, etc, I actually want to learn OOP.

#4 I want something that can be ported to Linux, OpenBSD, Mac OSX, OS/2, AmigaOS, or whatever I want to port the app to. Sorry CRC, Delphi/Kylix won't do that.

#5 I want something that open source developers are already using. C/C++ seems to be very popular using gcc and libraries developed for it.

#6 I want something with an IDE, so I can drop and drag controls on forms and have it generate and modifiy code for me. Then I can fill in the details to complete it.

#7 It has to be virtually free, I cannot afford much. Even the $10USD Visual Studio.Net trial CD got my wife mad at me.

#8 Has to have a lot of free web site tutorials, howtos, faqs, etc written on it.

#9 Has to be something I am comfortable using.

#10 Has to be a language that is marketable to companies that potentially will hire me. In other words, organizations have to use it a lot, and will offer me jobs if I know it.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New VM's are the new wave
#1 Something I can use to create programs with that doesn't run in a VM that bogs it down or use an Interpriter or whatever. I want something that runs fast.
C programs can be tuned to run vewy vewy fast because plain old ansi-C sits just slightly above the hardware abstraction. Being that close, there's a wealth of techniques to tune code to take maximum advantage of the underlying hardware. That blazing low level speed eventually runs into a problem. Where's the libraries to write C code that allows the app to build applications that have the users have the same experience on the variuous platforms. How many C++ progs do you know that succeeded in writing applications that require an intensive graphical user interfaces and having that resulting cross-platform user interface be able to compete with native only applications.

And as for VM's, I'd suggest that VB code and forms was never really a compiled environment. Instead, the forms were data files and prior to VB6, the code was compiled to intermediate code sets. If you felt that VB could handle the requiired speed, I'd go out on a limb and suggest Python and Ruby can write applications that a competitive in user response times.

#2 Something I can adapt to. I already have C Language skills, and I am a bit rusty with them. I am trying to write simple C programs and am having difficulty, but I am relearning.
Best to get back on the C horse and get comfortable before the level of knowledge you have to know for C++ requires you to go directly into the heart of the dragon. In my opinion, the number of C & C++ jobs is a slow to no-growth market - unless you're in instrumentation. Means that there are a lot of smart C++ gurus out there that aren't gonna appreciate new faces walking in on their craft.

#3 Unlike Bryce, etc, I actually want to learn OOP.
Don't forget you'll have to get up to speed on templates and higher programming in general. It's possible to have the discipline to use C++ as an OO language. I just think that it is the most hostile environment for learning the principles of object oriented programming.

#4 I want something that can be ported to Linux, OpenBSD, Mac OSX, OS/2, AmigaOS, or whatever I want to port the app to. Sorry CRC, Delphi/Kylix won't do that.
Are you targeting the native API's for each of the platforms that you cite? Or to put it in more specific terms, show me some successful applications that are capable of running on Windows, Linux, Mac OSX, OS/2, AmigaOS. Most of the successful ones I've seen are written with unix pipes being the primary mode of input/output, with very little VB type GUI forms.

#5 I want something that open source developers are already using. C/C++ seems to be very popular using gcc and libraries developed for it.
C/C++ are very popular for writing Linux Apps. C/C++ is also very popular for writing Windows Apps. However, the two camps don't often meet, and you get into some major projects when you want to cross the platform gap.

#6 I want something with an IDE, so I can drop and drag controls on forms and have it generate and modifiy code for me. Then I can fill in the details to complete it.
Then you not only need to know the language, you need to know the graphic/windowing environment/library that you will be choosing. Lot's of choices (gtk, gnome, etc...). But that leaves you with additional problems in that you have to not only port your application across, but now you come to depend on libraries that were written where cross-platform was not necessarily a goal.

#7 It has to be virtually free, I cannot afford much. Even the $10USD Visual Studio.Net trial CD got my wife mad at me.
Python, Ruby, Perl, and JavaScript are about as free as free can be. I prefer python (not sure if admin still does), Jim Weirich prefers Ruby, and Tilly monks with Perl. All free, all expanding. And most important they are rapid prototyping languages - a feat of VB that will not be replaced by C++.

#8 Has to have a lot of free web site tutorials, howtos, faqs, etc written on it.
C++ is a mammoth language that requires you to be fully cognizant of the dangers. You will have to read a pile of books and trundle through some difficult projects prior to being able to do even some of the most basic things. Don't forget the "Effective" books as they are chalk full of problems which must be avoided.

Python, Ruby, and Perl have an equal amount of material avaiilable, with freely available libraries to do a lot of cool stuff.

#9 Has to be something I am comfortable using.
Having done a bit of C, with a tad of C++ trhown in for good measure, I can't say that the word comfortable and C++ are synonomous.

#10 Has to be a language that is marketable to companies that potentially will hire me. In other words, organizations have to use it a lot, and will offer me jobs if I know it.
C & C++ will continue to have a niche in the markets, but this will become dominated by engineering. Business applications are steering further and further from these languages.

Means that you can still make money with C & C++, but with the number of jobs not significantly expanding, I foresee that the C/C++ world will become dominated by C gurus that have been eating this stuff for lunch since they were in diapers. Entry level C/C++ is perhaps a thing of the past - unless you live in a foreign country.
New Re: Some things I want out of a language
#1 Something I can use to create programs with that doesn't run in a VM that bogs it down or use an Interpriter or whatever. I want something that runs fast.

Sounds like premature optimization to me. You don't even know WTF you are going to write yet. Why worry about performance?

#7 It has to be virtually free, I cannot afford much. Even the $10USD Visual Studio.Net trial CD got my wife mad at me.

Have you even received that CD yet? Isn't you wife going to be even more mad if you blew that money without putting it to use?

I think you need to focus. Did you ever get Windows 2000 or XP running so you could use VS.NET? And now you want to wipe your machine and install Linux?

Focus.

--
Chris Altmann
New Focus
I got more than one machine.

The Windows 98SE machine can be wiped to run Linux.

I have XP Pro on that $400USD Computer with the Athlon XP2000+ CPU and 512M of RAM, I also have XP Pro on my Compaq Presario 2500 laptop. I just got the VS.NET CD yesterday and haven't had a chance to install it yet. Been too busy with studying for college, family matters, etc. Today we go to the Transportation Museum, tomorrow I fix a relative's PC whose antivirus subscription expired last year and has a daughter who runs Kazaa. Monday I have class to go to. My paper has been written, and I read most of the E-Text section for the class. So my time management doesn't allow for software installs yet.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New You want Visualworks
Smalltalk - it requires a VM but has a single skinnable GUI api that works on lots of platforms. Its free until you want to sell something - and then you negotiate your license fee with Cincom (which is a very reasonable bunch of people).

[link|http://www.cincom.com/scripts/smalltalk.dll/downloads/index.ssp?content=smalltalk|http://www.cincom.co...content=smalltalk]

You just want the Cincom smalltalk non-commercial CD download. There's a ton of PDF tutorials and the mailing list people are very helpful (no ego - unlike the JHeads).

VW is plenty fast for most applications. There have been [link|http://www.whysmalltalk.com/smalltalkcomparisons/elastolab.htm|realtime physics modelers] done in it.

It is its own IDE. You can do guis, web apps, whatever in it. The environment is very forgiving (debugger pops automatically whenever you've made a mistake - just back up the program, fix the mistake and continue).

FWIW, the only people using C++ anymore are Windows developers and a very few low level library people on some Unixes. Nobody other the Win-heads are using C++ for GUIs anymore.




"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
New Re: You want Visualworks
FWIW, the only people using C++ anymore are Windows developers and a very few low level library people on some Unixes. Nobody other the Win-heads are using C++ for GUIs anymore.

Even here it's just a lot of MFC futzing and bears little direct resemblance to using C++ as a general purpose language.

C++ seems to have developed a niche in numerical programming, where the operator overloading and templates can be exploited. That said, "real" numerical work (as in bridge building) is still by and large done with libraries like EISPACK and LINPACK, and the newer LAPACK, in FORTRAN.
-drl
New Just about anything will be fast enough.
Very few people actually need the speed they think they need.

There are quite a few GUIs written in Python these days as well.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Python GUIs (new thread)
Created as new thread #133402 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=133402|Python GUIs]



"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
New I downloaded it
got the CDR somewhere, last time I tried to install it I got a blue screen, fatal exception error 0E, and a system lockup. Tossed it into a pile somewhere for future use.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New Try again
its been updated.



"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
New When I find time I might
just do that.

Ugh, so many choices, and I cannot choose them all. One at a time. I even have that Delphi trial CD I lost the key to after reformatting my hard drive and my Outlook PST file corrupting. I hope they don't see a second request for a trial key as a way around actually buying the software?



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New OT, didn't know Cincom was still around.
Used to use CONTROL at a job a few steps back, ran on a vax at the time.
-----
Steve
New Purchased VW from Parcplace years ago
and have made their business Smalltalk centric.




"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
New Bzzzzt! Wrong-o, but thanks for playing
You forgot about us (or is it we...?) embedded jocks.

That said, thanks for the pointer to Cincom.
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
New For GUI's?
I included you embedded people in the "low level library" crowd.

Oh, and people are doing [link|http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com/html/OOPSLA2003d4PDA.html|some] [link|http://weatherdimensions.com/index.html#midList|nifty] [link|http://www.huv.com/|embedded-ish] [link|http://microship.com/|things] [link|http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3559|using] [link|http://www.squeak.org|Squeak] these days.




"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:59:02 AM EDT
New Actually...
...One of my two targets is developing a GUI library for the upgraded device we're getting ready to release later this year.

It will be my second...no, third embedded GUI I've implemented (the hesitation is that this one, and the first one were rolled from scratch; the second one was done using QNX's Photon POSlibrary)

They're all over the damn place!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
New Speaking of Smalltalk
A bunch of [link|http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/WebPages/FreeBooks.html|Free Smalltalk books] are available for the taking.
New You can forget about performance considerations
I've recently done a small project computing linear curve-fitting for three years worth of data for every stock on NYSE. Coding took about 20 minutes, loading of data from yahoo.com took whole day, computiing itself took less than an hour. In Python.

So, unless you can actually prove that you have performance problems due to interpreter, just forget about it. Use whatever is easier for you to code in.
--

"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"

-- James Lileks
New Hallelujah, preach it, brother!
I was one of the original authors of VB, and *I* wouldn't use VB for a text
processing program. :-)
Michael Geary, on comp.lang.python
New Re: Some things I want out of a language
#4 I want something that can be ported to Linux, OpenBSD, Mac OSX, OS/2, AmigaOS, or whatever I want to port the app to. Sorry CRC, Delphi/Kylix won't do that.

Well, Norm, neither will anything else if you're talking about writing a GUI app. Not too long ago, there were cross-platform libraries like Zinc or zApp that provided an object framework (cf. MFC) that was "portable" (more or less...). What we had was simply a library that a linker would link into the image. You made calls into the library, that abstracted (to a greater or lesser degree) the base-level interface to the native GUI libraries for the platform. I dunno, but I don't think these exist anymore.

But even if they do, these libraries (or other libraries like VCL, CLX, the gawd-awful MFuckingC, the god-forsaken .NyET, or anybody else's approach) are libraries. They are NOT C++. Please get that straight. You learn C++ by writing code to the ANSI standard (whenever possible). You then learn the interface to one of these libraries, and you call them using your newly-minted C++ skills. The compiler is hardly the issue. Don't make the mistake of thinking that IDE == compiler == language (e.g. "I'm learning Visual C++!"). Learn ANSI C++. Find a compiler that will compile ANSI C++. Learn one or more object framework libraries to allow yourself to write GUI code, if you want. Learn the STL for everything else. Then have fun!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
New wxWindows comes pretty damned close.
[link|http://www.wxwindows.org/faqgen.htm#platforms|http://www.wxwindows...gen.htm#platforms]
What platforms are supported by wxWindows 2?

* Windows 3.1, Windows 95/98, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows ME.
* Linux and other Unix platforms with GTK+.
* Unix with Motif or the free Motif clone Lesstif.
* Mac OS.
* Embedded platforms are being investigated. See the wxUniversal project.
* An OS/2 port is in progress, and you can also compile wxWindows for GTK+ or Motif on OS/2.
The only one I don't see there is AmigaOS, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a port (or it would be easy to do a port) if AmigaOS supports GTK+ or Lesstif. And since there's a port of Python available for AmigaOS...
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
     Moving away from MS Development Tools - (orion) - (50)
         Do you have a Linux system going? -NT - (deSitter) - (25)
             Not yet - (orion) - (24)
                 Silly question - why not use Knoppix... - (Simon_Jester) - (3)
                     I would - (orion) - (2)
                         Knoppix has Kdevelop - (tjsinclair) - (1)
                             I'll give it a try sometime - (orion)
                 What's tying the missus to Windows? - (pwhysall) - (19)
                     Re: What's tying the missus to Windows? - (orion) - (18)
                         Does it? - (imric) - (1)
                             Last time I tried a dual-boot - (orion)
                         Guff. - (pwhysall) - (15)
                             Answer: it doesn't. - (admin) - (14)
                                 Re: Answer: it doesn't. - (deSitter) - (4)
                                     Somewhat. It's gotten much better. - (admin) - (3)
                                         Re: Somewhat. It's gotten much better. - (deSitter) - (2)
                                             Again, it depends. - (admin) - (1)
                                                 And... you need not use... - (folkert)
                                 It does - (orion) - (8)
                                     Re: It does - (pwhysall) - (7)
                                         rofl - (deSitter) - (6)
                                             Funny, but... - (admin) - (3)
                                                 Hear that clickety-clickety sound? -NT - (drewk) - (2)
                                                     I thought that was Hook's crocodile. *bother* -NT - (bepatient)
                                                     While he's standing there in the same room? - (admin)
                                             Very funny - (orion) - (1)
                                                 Microsoft Air Tank XP? -NT - (pwhysall)
         Forget about "GCC programming" - (pwhysall) - (1)
             Thanks - (orion)
         Register me as one that thinks that learning C++ is... - (ChrisR) - (21)
             Some things I want out of a language - (orion) - (20)
                 VM's are the new wave - (ChrisR)
                 Re: Some things I want out of a language - (altmann) - (1)
                     Focus - (orion)
                 You want Visualworks - (tuberculosis) - (12)
                     Re: You want Visualworks - (deSitter)
                     Just about anything will be fast enough. - (admin) - (1)
                         Python GUIs (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
                     I downloaded it - (orion) - (2)
                         Try again - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                             When I find time I might - (orion)
                     OT, didn't know Cincom was still around. - (Steve Lowe) - (1)
                         Purchased VW from Parcplace years ago - (tuberculosis)
                     Bzzzzt! Wrong-o, but thanks for playing - (jb4) - (2)
                         For GUI's? - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                             Actually... - (jb4)
                     Speaking of Smalltalk - (ChrisR)
                 You can forget about performance considerations - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                     Hallelujah, preach it, brother! -NT - (FuManChu)
                 Re: Some things I want out of a language - (jb4) - (1)
                     wxWindows comes pretty damned close. - (admin)

Yeah, baby!
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