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New Moving away from MS Development Tools
I found this project interesting:

[link|https://sourceforge.net/projects/yades/|https://sourceforge.net/projects/yades/]

I was going to learn Visual C++ or Visual C++.Net, but I figure if Microsoft limits the licenses on programs created with their tools, why not switch to GNU tools?

It means moving away from Visual BASIC, but I'd have to learn VB.NET anyway.

C++ is portable, if I write an App in MingW/GCC, I might have better luck porting it to Linux.

Something to do when I find the time to do so.

Any good online references for learning GCC programming? I'm too poor to buy any more books for a while.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New Do you have a Linux system going?
-drl
New Not yet
haven't had the time. I was going to let you do it, before we got to flaming each other in these forums. I still have the SuSE 8.2 CDR disks.

Problem is my 700Mhz system runs Windows 98SE, and my wife isn't used to XP Pro yet. So once she learns XP Pro, she hasn't had the time to learn it yet, but once she does I can reformat the 700Mhz system for Linux.

I'll most likely try to learn C/C++ and maybe the Mono C# if possible on it.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New Silly question - why not use Knoppix...
Doesn't it have gcc on it?

Boot from CD - do your stuff...when done, reboot and it's back in Windows.
New I would
but I need an IDE, and I would like to use Mono as well. Not included on the standard KNOPPIX CDR IIRC.

I have one, only used it a few times. Could not get it to access the Internet for some odd reason.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New Knoppix has Kdevelop
A nice GUI front end for gcc, gdb, g++, etc.

I use it in my classes.

Tom Sinclair

The question seldom addressed is *where* Medusa had snakes. Underarm hair
is an even more embarassing problem when it keeps biting the top of the
deodorant bottle.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
New I'll give it a try sometime
when I can download the latest ISO image and burn it.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New What's tying the missus to Windows?
SuSE Linux is great. 9's out. Go get the 22MB net install ISO, install it, then install apt4rpm and be happy.


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
New Re: What's tying the missus to Windows?
She barely knows how to use Windows, Linux would be a whole different topic to teach her. It has a higher learning curve. She is a Nurse and doesn't use a computer at all at her work.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New Does it?
I haven't seen that client apps - games, office tools, Internet browsing, etc are any harder for Linux than Windows. Maybe admin tasks might be hard for someone to absorb - but once set up, how many of those would she deal with anyway? That'd be YOUR headache, no? *chuckle*

Set up the box to dual-boot, but give her an account - ask her to use Linux when she can, rather than rebooting (for things like browsing, mail, etc.)

Who knows - she may grow to like it better!

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Last time I tried a dual-boot
I hosed up the hard drive partition. All or nothing. :)



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New Guff.
Why does Linux have a "higher learning curve" (whatever THAT means) than Windows?


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
New Answer: it doesn't.
For users... people who just use Netscape or Word or what-have-you, there is *no* difference whatsoever between Linux and Windows. They can't set up either one, and clicking an icon on one OS is the same as another.

My wife (completely computer illiterate [well, not completely, but close enough]) and son use Linux for web browsing, email, and text processing. Daily. With next to no training.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Re: Answer: it doesn't.
The only nit I would make is that printing is still a needlessly complex bitch.
-drl
New Somewhat. It's gotten much better.
aptitude install cupsys cupsys-client cupsys-driver-gimpprint

Next hit localhost:631 with a browser, and do 'add printer'. Works like a charm if it's an lpd printer; somewhat more screwing around (need to install Samba) if it's an NT printer. Sometimes you have to play around with the drivers to get one that works with your printer if it's newer hardware; I had to use the BJC8000 driver for my Canon i560. My Canon is run through my [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=121129|D-Link print server], which presents as an lpd server. I found the setup to be easier in some respects under Linux because Windows requires a special D-Link driver to make the connection for some reason.

I have yet to test printing through Crossover Office. I'll be doing that Real Soon Now, though. There are a few nice photo printing apps I want to run on Linux, and Xover Office looks like it might be the way to go.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Re: Somewhat. It's gotten much better.
I had to repeatedly tweak the cups-gimpprint settings on the Lexmark Z53 driver for density, contrast, and gamma, and it's still butt-slow. Yes, the "get it going" part is easier, but until vendors start distributing binary drivers that match the printer capabilities, printing will lag behind.
-drl
New Again, it depends.
Check Google to see if there are updated drivers. The first driver I picked for my Canon was butt slow, but when I found the right one, it started printing just as quickly as (if not faster than) Windows.

Speaking of binary drivers: [link|http://www.linuxprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=Lexmark-Z53|http://www.linuxprin...ecnum=Lexmark-Z53]
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New And... you need not use...
Gimp-Print...

You can use Foomatic and other Printing libraries too.

Things are starting to just work with printing as well.

I have all machines printing to my CUPS printer.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
New It does
if the GUI doesn't load and sticks her in a CLI prompt.

If she wants to install something and I have to introduce her to chmod to mark the file downloaded as executable.

If she installs something and the RPM library messes up, or the app needs an older library to work and refuses to work with the newer library that is installed.

If she installs a new app, and cannot find the icon to launch it because it is a missing feature of the OS.

If she needs to install something, and has to compile it, and encounters an error compiling it. I have to teach her how to use the compiler, edit source code and make files, etc.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New Re: It does
if the GUI doesn't load and sticks her in a CLI prompt.

What about if WXP bluescreens?
If she wants to install something and I have to introduce her to chmod to mark the file downloaded as executable.

Why would this complete novice be installing ANYTHING? Aren't you available?
If she installs something and the RPM library messes up, or the app needs an older library to work and refuses to work with the newer library that is installed.

See answer above.
If she installs a new app, and cannot find the icon to launch it because it is a missing feature of the OS.

See answer above. And WTF?
If she needs to install something, and has to compile it, and encounters an error compiling it. I have to teach her how to use the compiler, edit source code and make files, etc.

See answer above. What the HELL? You're looking for excuses again, and finding them.

"Won't install Linux because the missus can't operate a compiler" indeed. How very 1996. It was true then. It isn't true now.



Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
New rofl
LRPD "How very 1996"

Mornin' Pete, right on time. How's the coffee?

Norm is perhaps the ultimate pessimist. Any offered solution or idea instantly generates 1000 "can't" in his mind. It's an extraordinary level of creativity.

"Breathe Norm!"

"I can't - I don't trust the air, it might burst my lungs, pollution, etc."

"But Norm, you'll die if you don't breathe..."

"I know, but I can't. There might be poisonous gnomes hiding behind the furniture and I can't take that chance."

"But Norm, what difference does it make if you're poisoned by foul smelling gnomes vs. not breathing at all?"

"Well as long as I don't breathe, there's always a chance that I won't need oxygen."

"Norm, I checked behind the furniture and there are no gnomes. You can breathe now."

"Well, I'd better not, someone else with respiratory problems may burst through the front door and need all the oxygen they can get..."

"Norm, I locked the door on my way in..."

"Well, what if there is radioactive dust coming up from the basement?"

"Norm, I have a Geiger counter where my spleen used to be - and you're looking sort of cyanotic..."

"If I breathe, how do I know that I'll be able to take a full breath? I'd rather just get it over with, and besides, I'm not allowed to breathe before noon."

"Norm, it's 3 PM."

"But it's before noon in Hawaii!"

....

"NORM GODDAMN IT BREATHE!!"

"Well, maybe just once..."

"BREATHE!!!!"

"[gasp choke]"

"Now isnt' that better?"

"Well I suppose so, but what if..."
-drl
New Funny, but...
How's he talking if he isn't breathing...?

;-)
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Hear that clickety-clickety sound?
===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
New I thought that was Hook's crocodile. *bother*

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

It goes in, it must come out.Teslacle's Deviant to Fudd's Law

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

New While he's standing there in the same room?
Frog, meet dissection table.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Very funny
but if I believed that I'd buy an air tank and breathe from that. Then when it emptied switch air tanks. Or get a gask mask with a good filter.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New Microsoft Air Tank XP?


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
New Forget about "GCC programming"
gcc's just a compiler. There's nothing magic about it; it compiles ANSI C++ and C code.

Learn the language, and then learn the libraries.

It appears that Google /is/ down in StL:

[link|http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=C%2B%2B+tutorial|http://www.google.co...=C%2B%2B+tutorial]


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
New Thanks
I was trying to find GCC tutorials and found a lot of Linux Howtos. Seems I got some reading to do.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New Register me as one that thinks that learning C++ is...
...a waste of time. If you know C already, then just start using gcc - it's a perfectly good C compiler. And if you want to fart around with the C++ extensions, that'd be fine. But cross platform apps in C - much less C++ - just isn't worth the trouble for GUI intensive apps. Python, Ruby or Perl are far better ways to go. And no matter which way you turn, you'll probably have to work with embedded JavaScript.

Of course, that begs the question. What do you want to do with the language. Cross platform is a secondary, if not tertiary, concern. If it's your primary concern, then you're best off using a language that runs atop a VM, and let the language designers worry about porting it to umpteen different environments.
New Some things I want out of a language
#1 Something I can use to create programs with that doesn't run in a VM that bogs it down or use an Interpriter or whatever. I want something that runs fast.

#2 Something I can adapt to. I already have C Language skills, and I am a bit rusty with them. I am trying to write simple C programs and am having difficulty, but I am relearning.

#3 Unlike Bryce, etc, I actually want to learn OOP.

#4 I want something that can be ported to Linux, OpenBSD, Mac OSX, OS/2, AmigaOS, or whatever I want to port the app to. Sorry CRC, Delphi/Kylix won't do that.

#5 I want something that open source developers are already using. C/C++ seems to be very popular using gcc and libraries developed for it.

#6 I want something with an IDE, so I can drop and drag controls on forms and have it generate and modifiy code for me. Then I can fill in the details to complete it.

#7 It has to be virtually free, I cannot afford much. Even the $10USD Visual Studio.Net trial CD got my wife mad at me.

#8 Has to have a lot of free web site tutorials, howtos, faqs, etc written on it.

#9 Has to be something I am comfortable using.

#10 Has to be a language that is marketable to companies that potentially will hire me. In other words, organizations have to use it a lot, and will offer me jobs if I know it.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New VM's are the new wave
#1 Something I can use to create programs with that doesn't run in a VM that bogs it down or use an Interpriter or whatever. I want something that runs fast.
C programs can be tuned to run vewy vewy fast because plain old ansi-C sits just slightly above the hardware abstraction. Being that close, there's a wealth of techniques to tune code to take maximum advantage of the underlying hardware. That blazing low level speed eventually runs into a problem. Where's the libraries to write C code that allows the app to build applications that have the users have the same experience on the variuous platforms. How many C++ progs do you know that succeeded in writing applications that require an intensive graphical user interfaces and having that resulting cross-platform user interface be able to compete with native only applications.

And as for VM's, I'd suggest that VB code and forms was never really a compiled environment. Instead, the forms were data files and prior to VB6, the code was compiled to intermediate code sets. If you felt that VB could handle the requiired speed, I'd go out on a limb and suggest Python and Ruby can write applications that a competitive in user response times.

#2 Something I can adapt to. I already have C Language skills, and I am a bit rusty with them. I am trying to write simple C programs and am having difficulty, but I am relearning.
Best to get back on the C horse and get comfortable before the level of knowledge you have to know for C++ requires you to go directly into the heart of the dragon. In my opinion, the number of C & C++ jobs is a slow to no-growth market - unless you're in instrumentation. Means that there are a lot of smart C++ gurus out there that aren't gonna appreciate new faces walking in on their craft.

#3 Unlike Bryce, etc, I actually want to learn OOP.
Don't forget you'll have to get up to speed on templates and higher programming in general. It's possible to have the discipline to use C++ as an OO language. I just think that it is the most hostile environment for learning the principles of object oriented programming.

#4 I want something that can be ported to Linux, OpenBSD, Mac OSX, OS/2, AmigaOS, or whatever I want to port the app to. Sorry CRC, Delphi/Kylix won't do that.
Are you targeting the native API's for each of the platforms that you cite? Or to put it in more specific terms, show me some successful applications that are capable of running on Windows, Linux, Mac OSX, OS/2, AmigaOS. Most of the successful ones I've seen are written with unix pipes being the primary mode of input/output, with very little VB type GUI forms.

#5 I want something that open source developers are already using. C/C++ seems to be very popular using gcc and libraries developed for it.
C/C++ are very popular for writing Linux Apps. C/C++ is also very popular for writing Windows Apps. However, the two camps don't often meet, and you get into some major projects when you want to cross the platform gap.

#6 I want something with an IDE, so I can drop and drag controls on forms and have it generate and modifiy code for me. Then I can fill in the details to complete it.
Then you not only need to know the language, you need to know the graphic/windowing environment/library that you will be choosing. Lot's of choices (gtk, gnome, etc...). But that leaves you with additional problems in that you have to not only port your application across, but now you come to depend on libraries that were written where cross-platform was not necessarily a goal.

#7 It has to be virtually free, I cannot afford much. Even the $10USD Visual Studio.Net trial CD got my wife mad at me.
Python, Ruby, Perl, and JavaScript are about as free as free can be. I prefer python (not sure if admin still does), Jim Weirich prefers Ruby, and Tilly monks with Perl. All free, all expanding. And most important they are rapid prototyping languages - a feat of VB that will not be replaced by C++.

#8 Has to have a lot of free web site tutorials, howtos, faqs, etc written on it.
C++ is a mammoth language that requires you to be fully cognizant of the dangers. You will have to read a pile of books and trundle through some difficult projects prior to being able to do even some of the most basic things. Don't forget the "Effective" books as they are chalk full of problems which must be avoided.

Python, Ruby, and Perl have an equal amount of material avaiilable, with freely available libraries to do a lot of cool stuff.

#9 Has to be something I am comfortable using.
Having done a bit of C, with a tad of C++ trhown in for good measure, I can't say that the word comfortable and C++ are synonomous.

#10 Has to be a language that is marketable to companies that potentially will hire me. In other words, organizations have to use it a lot, and will offer me jobs if I know it.
C & C++ will continue to have a niche in the markets, but this will become dominated by engineering. Business applications are steering further and further from these languages.

Means that you can still make money with C & C++, but with the number of jobs not significantly expanding, I foresee that the C/C++ world will become dominated by C gurus that have been eating this stuff for lunch since they were in diapers. Entry level C/C++ is perhaps a thing of the past - unless you live in a foreign country.
New Re: Some things I want out of a language
#1 Something I can use to create programs with that doesn't run in a VM that bogs it down or use an Interpriter or whatever. I want something that runs fast.

Sounds like premature optimization to me. You don't even know WTF you are going to write yet. Why worry about performance?

#7 It has to be virtually free, I cannot afford much. Even the $10USD Visual Studio.Net trial CD got my wife mad at me.

Have you even received that CD yet? Isn't you wife going to be even more mad if you blew that money without putting it to use?

I think you need to focus. Did you ever get Windows 2000 or XP running so you could use VS.NET? And now you want to wipe your machine and install Linux?

Focus.

--
Chris Altmann
New Focus
I got more than one machine.

The Windows 98SE machine can be wiped to run Linux.

I have XP Pro on that $400USD Computer with the Athlon XP2000+ CPU and 512M of RAM, I also have XP Pro on my Compaq Presario 2500 laptop. I just got the VS.NET CD yesterday and haven't had a chance to install it yet. Been too busy with studying for college, family matters, etc. Today we go to the Transportation Museum, tomorrow I fix a relative's PC whose antivirus subscription expired last year and has a daughter who runs Kazaa. Monday I have class to go to. My paper has been written, and I read most of the E-Text section for the class. So my time management doesn't allow for software installs yet.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New You want Visualworks
Smalltalk - it requires a VM but has a single skinnable GUI api that works on lots of platforms. Its free until you want to sell something - and then you negotiate your license fee with Cincom (which is a very reasonable bunch of people).

[link|http://www.cincom.com/scripts/smalltalk.dll/downloads/index.ssp?content=smalltalk|http://www.cincom.co...content=smalltalk]

You just want the Cincom smalltalk non-commercial CD download. There's a ton of PDF tutorials and the mailing list people are very helpful (no ego - unlike the JHeads).

VW is plenty fast for most applications. There have been [link|http://www.whysmalltalk.com/smalltalkcomparisons/elastolab.htm|realtime physics modelers] done in it.

It is its own IDE. You can do guis, web apps, whatever in it. The environment is very forgiving (debugger pops automatically whenever you've made a mistake - just back up the program, fix the mistake and continue).

FWIW, the only people using C++ anymore are Windows developers and a very few low level library people on some Unixes. Nobody other the Win-heads are using C++ for GUIs anymore.




"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
New Re: You want Visualworks
FWIW, the only people using C++ anymore are Windows developers and a very few low level library people on some Unixes. Nobody other the Win-heads are using C++ for GUIs anymore.

Even here it's just a lot of MFC futzing and bears little direct resemblance to using C++ as a general purpose language.

C++ seems to have developed a niche in numerical programming, where the operator overloading and templates can be exploited. That said, "real" numerical work (as in bridge building) is still by and large done with libraries like EISPACK and LINPACK, and the newer LAPACK, in FORTRAN.
-drl
New Just about anything will be fast enough.
Very few people actually need the speed they think they need.

There are quite a few GUIs written in Python these days as well.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Python GUIs (new thread)
Created as new thread #133402 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=133402|Python GUIs]



"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
New I downloaded it
got the CDR somewhere, last time I tried to install it I got a blue screen, fatal exception error 0E, and a system lockup. Tossed it into a pile somewhere for future use.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New Try again
its been updated.



"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
New When I find time I might
just do that.

Ugh, so many choices, and I cannot choose them all. One at a time. I even have that Delphi trial CD I lost the key to after reformatting my hard drive and my Outlook PST file corrupting. I hope they don't see a second request for a trial key as a way around actually buying the software?



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New OT, didn't know Cincom was still around.
Used to use CONTROL at a job a few steps back, ran on a vax at the time.
-----
Steve
New Purchased VW from Parcplace years ago
and have made their business Smalltalk centric.




"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
New Bzzzzt! Wrong-o, but thanks for playing
You forgot about us (or is it we...?) embedded jocks.

That said, thanks for the pointer to Cincom.
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
New For GUI's?
I included you embedded people in the "low level library" crowd.

Oh, and people are doing [link|http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com/html/OOPSLA2003d4PDA.html|some] [link|http://weatherdimensions.com/index.html#midList|nifty] [link|http://www.huv.com/|embedded-ish] [link|http://microship.com/|things] [link|http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3559|using] [link|http://www.squeak.org|Squeak] these days.




"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:59:02 AM EDT
New Actually...
...One of my two targets is developing a GUI library for the upgraded device we're getting ready to release later this year.

It will be my second...no, third embedded GUI I've implemented (the hesitation is that this one, and the first one were rolled from scratch; the second one was done using QNX's Photon POSlibrary)

They're all over the damn place!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
New Speaking of Smalltalk
A bunch of [link|http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/WebPages/FreeBooks.html|Free Smalltalk books] are available for the taking.
New You can forget about performance considerations
I've recently done a small project computing linear curve-fitting for three years worth of data for every stock on NYSE. Coding took about 20 minutes, loading of data from yahoo.com took whole day, computiing itself took less than an hour. In Python.

So, unless you can actually prove that you have performance problems due to interpreter, just forget about it. Use whatever is easier for you to code in.
--

"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"

-- James Lileks
New Hallelujah, preach it, brother!
I was one of the original authors of VB, and *I* wouldn't use VB for a text
processing program. :-)
Michael Geary, on comp.lang.python
New Re: Some things I want out of a language
#4 I want something that can be ported to Linux, OpenBSD, Mac OSX, OS/2, AmigaOS, or whatever I want to port the app to. Sorry CRC, Delphi/Kylix won't do that.

Well, Norm, neither will anything else if you're talking about writing a GUI app. Not too long ago, there were cross-platform libraries like Zinc or zApp that provided an object framework (cf. MFC) that was "portable" (more or less...). What we had was simply a library that a linker would link into the image. You made calls into the library, that abstracted (to a greater or lesser degree) the base-level interface to the native GUI libraries for the platform. I dunno, but I don't think these exist anymore.

But even if they do, these libraries (or other libraries like VCL, CLX, the gawd-awful MFuckingC, the god-forsaken .NyET, or anybody else's approach) are libraries. They are NOT C++. Please get that straight. You learn C++ by writing code to the ANSI standard (whenever possible). You then learn the interface to one of these libraries, and you call them using your newly-minted C++ skills. The compiler is hardly the issue. Don't make the mistake of thinking that IDE == compiler == language (e.g. "I'm learning Visual C++!"). Learn ANSI C++. Find a compiler that will compile ANSI C++. Learn one or more object framework libraries to allow yourself to write GUI code, if you want. Learn the STL for everything else. Then have fun!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
New wxWindows comes pretty damned close.
[link|http://www.wxwindows.org/faqgen.htm#platforms|http://www.wxwindows...gen.htm#platforms]
What platforms are supported by wxWindows 2?

* Windows 3.1, Windows 95/98, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows ME.
* Linux and other Unix platforms with GTK+.
* Unix with Motif or the free Motif clone Lesstif.
* Mac OS.
* Embedded platforms are being investigated. See the wxUniversal project.
* An OS/2 port is in progress, and you can also compile wxWindows for GTK+ or Motif on OS/2.
The only one I don't see there is AmigaOS, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a port (or it would be easy to do a port) if AmigaOS supports GTK+ or Lesstif. And since there's a port of Python available for AmigaOS...
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
     Moving away from MS Development Tools - (orion) - (50)
         Do you have a Linux system going? -NT - (deSitter) - (25)
             Not yet - (orion) - (24)
                 Silly question - why not use Knoppix... - (Simon_Jester) - (3)
                     I would - (orion) - (2)
                         Knoppix has Kdevelop - (tjsinclair) - (1)
                             I'll give it a try sometime - (orion)
                 What's tying the missus to Windows? - (pwhysall) - (19)
                     Re: What's tying the missus to Windows? - (orion) - (18)
                         Does it? - (imric) - (1)
                             Last time I tried a dual-boot - (orion)
                         Guff. - (pwhysall) - (15)
                             Answer: it doesn't. - (admin) - (14)
                                 Re: Answer: it doesn't. - (deSitter) - (4)
                                     Somewhat. It's gotten much better. - (admin) - (3)
                                         Re: Somewhat. It's gotten much better. - (deSitter) - (2)
                                             Again, it depends. - (admin) - (1)
                                                 And... you need not use... - (folkert)
                                 It does - (orion) - (8)
                                     Re: It does - (pwhysall) - (7)
                                         rofl - (deSitter) - (6)
                                             Funny, but... - (admin) - (3)
                                                 Hear that clickety-clickety sound? -NT - (drewk) - (2)
                                                     I thought that was Hook's crocodile. *bother* -NT - (bepatient)
                                                     While he's standing there in the same room? - (admin)
                                             Very funny - (orion) - (1)
                                                 Microsoft Air Tank XP? -NT - (pwhysall)
         Forget about "GCC programming" - (pwhysall) - (1)
             Thanks - (orion)
         Register me as one that thinks that learning C++ is... - (ChrisR) - (21)
             Some things I want out of a language - (orion) - (20)
                 VM's are the new wave - (ChrisR)
                 Re: Some things I want out of a language - (altmann) - (1)
                     Focus - (orion)
                 You want Visualworks - (tuberculosis) - (12)
                     Re: You want Visualworks - (deSitter)
                     Just about anything will be fast enough. - (admin) - (1)
                         Python GUIs (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
                     I downloaded it - (orion) - (2)
                         Try again - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                             When I find time I might - (orion)
                     OT, didn't know Cincom was still around. - (Steve Lowe) - (1)
                         Purchased VW from Parcplace years ago - (tuberculosis)
                     Bzzzzt! Wrong-o, but thanks for playing - (jb4) - (2)
                         For GUI's? - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                             Actually... - (jb4)
                     Speaking of Smalltalk - (ChrisR)
                 You can forget about performance considerations - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                     Hallelujah, preach it, brother! -NT - (FuManChu)
                 Re: Some things I want out of a language - (jb4) - (1)
                     wxWindows comes pretty damned close. - (admin)

Only technical details are missing.
400 ms