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New Try this instead
[link|http://www.wired.com/news/avantgo/story/0,2278,61546-,00.html|Wired story]
lincoln

"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
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New Re: Try this instead
As you'll see in eq. 3 of this paper

[link|http://qoptics.physics.harvard.edu/RMP75_457.pdf|http://qoptics.physi...edu/RMP75_457.pdf]

the reference velocity is the "group velocity". To have a group velocity, you need a group.

The idea is that one considers the propagation of photons in an already existing photon "bath". That provides the group needed to make a group velocity - so even when they speak of "single photons", they are thought of in reference to the surrounding bath.

It should also be remembered that a single, bare photon cannot be localized at all - it has no rest frame and it is not even possible to assign coordinates to it - in fact the wave function of a single photon in a pefect vacuum extends to inifinity, so in a sense it is "everywhere" at once. All one can actually do with a single photon is say when it has interacted with something. (The position is undefined because for any photon, the momentum is exactly known, by definition - then apply the Heisenberg principle etc. Even in classical electrodynamics, the idea of an individual light "BB" moving at the speed of light is untenable.) For this reason (and others), it is not even legitimate to speak of individual photons in a complex system - there is simply the electromagnetic field as a whole. To give an example - when one passes light through a colored filter in a perfect vacuum, it is tempting to think of the transmitted light as just the original light minus certain frequencies - but in truth the original light dies at soon as it strikes the surface of the filter - when it dies, it sets up excitations in the atoms of the first few layers of the filter, which in turn set up exicitations in deeper layers etc. etc. until finally after countless emission and absorption events, this disturbance has propagated all the way across the filter. In fact the photons of light that allow you to read this print, are born right inside the rods and cones of your retina, not propagated across the space between the screen and your eye.

The speed represented by a group velocity is not phyiscal in the same sense as the speed of bullet. The best analogy is the intersection point of a pair of perfect scissors. If one blade of the scissors is represented by the x-axis, and the other by a line through the point (0,-1) with positive slope, then as the scissors close, the point of intersection races off to infinity. The intersection point, of course, carries no energy or momentum and is purely conventional. The relativistic speed of light applies to physical objects that carry mass. The key point is that group velocities cannot be associated with transfer of energy from place to place.

These photon traps are similar in principle to the filters and traps used in electronic music to induce signal delays (for reverb effects, etc.)

One more point, what one actually measures is this type of thing is occupation number - one doesn't measure the "speed" in the same sense as one does that of a runner, with a stopwatch.

This research is of course very significant for optical memory devices, but it's a shame that the press and sometimes even the researchers miss basic points of interpretation.
-drl
New That is a point I had never noticed before
It should also be remembered that a single, bare photon cannot be localized at all... The position is undefined because for any photon, the momentum is exactly known, by definition - then apply the Heisenberg principle etc.

As soon as you say it, well, duh. But I had never thought about it before...

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New This error in nomenclature seems of the class,
imagining "the 'temperature' of a single atom within a gas".. were we talking about thermodynamics. To confuse the er 'partic-ular' with a concept which is meaningless without a referent to "group behaviour": hmm, is this how we got String Theory over the transom? :-\ufffd

Well.. as LBL et al appear now to be up-for-Grabs; next lo-bidder to replace UC as manager: perhaps the Texazation of *research nears completion. (I've heard from a cohort, now at ALS (Advanced Light Source) re the actual effects, the now omnipresent Logos, the other-directedness.. No details here; there's enough shitty news elsewhere.)

* Texas Research == Corporate Development at the public trough: patents? nah.. you guys can have the results; it's research. Prof. Newton, meet Mr. Machiavelli. PhD CIEIO GOP




But hey.. we'll always have Paris pre-Corporate, pre-MBA memories! And.. Soma.
New so, it's infinitely improbable that we know ...
where a single photon is. Hmmm, if we could work out exactly how improbable it is, we might really [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Improbability_Drive|have something].
Have fun,
Carl Forde
New Another photon position discussion.
[link|http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/1999-02/msg0014472.html|Here].

To get a sharp image [from a telescope] (high angular resolution), it's necessary to know the momentum of photons to a very high precision. To do that, it's necessary to NOT be able to tell their location very closely. That's why there are optical telescopes more than five meters in diameter. Nobody can say where on the shiny paraboloid each of those photons hit. But they don't have to.

And radio telescopes are far larger. I've personally visited the world's largest, in Arecibo, Puerto Rico, where a secluded valley has been lined with metal mesh, to construct an instrument capable of detecting a millionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a watt. It's so sensitive that they wouldn't let me walk under it, lest the harmonics of my brain waves jam the faint microwave signals that have been in transit at the speed of light since before the earth was formed. But its spatial resolution is only about as good as the unaided human eye, despite the immense size, since the low total momentum of microwave photons means that you need to be spectacularly ignorant of photon position to get much resolution, and a valley just doesn't cut it.

The record goes to intercontinental radio interferometers, which manage to measure the azimuth of quasars closely enough to detect continental drift in real time. And which do so by deliberately NOT knowing the location of photons to within the width of our planet.

So there's your answer. Some photons are the size of the earth. And with advancing technology, they'll get much bigger. Smaller, too.


[link|http://technology.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/techGallery/gallery/gl_pages/stereo_ARISE_revised.html|ARISE] is/was a program at JPL to extend the interferometer baseline beyond the diameter of the Earth. (The [link|http://arise.jpl.nasa.gov/|ARISE] web page seems to be down.)

Cheers,
Scott.
     Wave of light is halted, for just a moment - (lincoln) - (13)
         "blues club" link was provided. -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (5)
             you have to be *real* stoned first - (deSitter)
             Re: "blues club" link was provided. - (rcareaga) - (3)
                 Or perhaps - (Ashton)
                 Moving at the speed of light with the headlights on. :) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                     Moving at .99999999999c with the headlights on - (deSitter)
         Sorry about the screwup on the source link - (lincoln)
         Try this instead - (lincoln) - (5)
             Re: Try this instead - (deSitter) - (4)
                 That is a point I had never noticed before - (ben_tilly)
                 This error in nomenclature seems of the class, - (Ashton)
                 so, it's infinitely improbable that we know ... - (cforde)
                 Another photon position discussion. - (Another Scott)

Obeying the Law of Unintended Consequences since 2001.
48 ms