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New I can see both sides
First of all in any larger group, communication overheads tend to scale faster than useful work does. This is old news, The Mythical Man-Month and all that. Process is meant to limit the amount of random communication you need, at the cost of annoying overhead, all of the time. Add a few incompetents to the mix, and you get continuous frustration.

Furthermore the frustration gets worse when people have to make decisions based on mistrust of others. I've been there, having to deal with a developer who could not be trusted to not mess up production. Having to walk the balance between limiting him enough to not do major damage while still letting him get enough done to be useful was very frustrating for both sides. And I'm very sure that he blamed me in spades for the irritations in his life.

On the flip side, there must be a balance. Developers really need a development environment under their control. Firewall it off. Scan it for obvious problems. Create backups as requested. But don't be a bottleneck. For a random instance, if they are using a persistent server technology (eg mod_perl), then they need to be able to restart it at will. Otherwise the administrator becomes a key step in the edit/compile/run cycle. Which is something that needs to be as fast as possible.

Remember, the job of an administrator is not to have a cleanly administered environment with everything locked down solid. You are not the reason that the computers are there, and your internal priorities do not drive the business. Rather your job is to make sure that other people can do their work. Yes, they will whine over everything that you need to do. But listen carefully. Sure, most of the whining that you hear is meaningless bitching and moaning. But some of it is feedback that you need to hear about where you are drawing the lines incorrectly.

Good administrators learn to tell the difference, and react appropriately. Unfortunately most administrators are incompetent. (And this differs from any other category of worker..?) :-(

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New I heard that Ben...
I am not incompetent!!!!
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
New Why do you assume...?
That when I am talking about most administrators, I am thinking of you in particular? :-P

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Re: I can see both sides
If you give a programming team an inch, one of them will become acquisitive and want a mile - so I started them off with a mile and drew a line. The line was - no OS installs without my approval. No dual boots without my approval.

Lo and behold, one day I walk in and everyone has Windows 95 beta installed. The machines were all messed up beyond use and they all had to be initialized.

Only a few programmers need to be assembled in order to find one who is thoughtless and self-centered enough to break clearly established rules. The irony is, they are perfectly capable of managing themselves, but end up needing the most management through immaturity and carelessness.
-drl
New That isn't a mile
When I started, my first task was the install the operating system of my choice on a machine that was handed to me. Something pretty Unix-like was mandated because I had to get our full development environment up and running. Dual boot is not suggested, but at some point I'll probably install vmware...

Out of curiousity, what reason was given by the programmers for installing Windows 95? While breaking everything is pretty bad, if the software that they were developing actually had to run on Windows 95, then they are justified in wanting an install around.

I'm remembering a situation years ago where I had constant issues with administrators who didn't want me to have Access 2.0 installed when my job was specifically developing Access applications that had to be able to run at other sites on Windows 3.1. When silly sysadmins came in direct conflict with my job description and my manager's direct orders, the sysadmins lost. (OTOH I did manage to convince the sysadmins that this was a justified change on my part...)

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Re: That isn't a mile
Certainly they were justified, and I had a workable plan for dual booting the machines in such a way that they weren't ruined (our whole operation ran on Windows for Workgroups with UNIX back end). I'm real easy and not at all a control freak, but I have reasons for doing things. This one programmer was just a sloppy fat asshole and he lorded it over the others. His ass got REAMED for his stunt, which was fun.
-drl
     Discussion fodder: Are Admins Evil? - (pwhysall) - (19)
         He is whining a bit - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
             Well... - (folkert)
         A key point was: - (a6l6e6x)
         nappy filler - (boxley)
         I can see both sides - (ben_tilly) - (5)
             I heard that Ben... - (folkert) - (1)
                 Why do you assume...? - (ben_tilly)
             Re: I can see both sides - (deSitter) - (2)
                 That isn't a mile - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                     Re: That isn't a mile - (deSitter)
         You know YOU are evil, but pure? - (broomberg) - (2)
             ROFL!!!! - (deSitter)
             Age is nothing to do with it :) - (pwhysall)
         Some are, some aren't - (tuberculosis) - (5)
             70/30? Lucky guy - (drewk) - (4)
                 A-Freakin-Men, me droog! -NT - (folkert)
                 Re: 70/30? Lucky guy - (deSitter) - (2)
                     Not always... - (folkert) - (1)
                         Think I'd rather work for you - (Ashton)

I just want to... sing!
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