Interesting view from BEA

Post #125,726 by tuberculosis 11/14/03 4:02:46 PM 8/21/07 12:45:41 PM Reply	Interesting view from BEA [link\|http://news.com.com/2010-7343-5106960.html?tag=nefd_gutspro\|http://news.com.com/...?tag=nefd_gutspro] If Java is to increase its central role in computing, it must become easier. A key reason for Java's success in the enterprise has been the Java 2 Enterprise Edition, better known as J2EE. J2EE is as powerful as any developer could ever dream. But with power comes complexity. All the J2EE specifications put side by side easily take a yard of shelf space. While I have a hard time visualizing enterprise technology becoming "easy" in my lifetime, it can--and should--be easier. If J2EE is to achieve mass adoption while maintaining what makes J2EE powerful, it must become easier. I think the guy nails it. Its way too complicated. I can get the lions share of J2EE's benefits with vastly lower overhead using other technologies. So hopefully Java will not increase its central role in computing. We will move on to something better promoted by people who are less dogmatic and more enlightened. Having worked with Seaside a bit more - I'm convinced that continuations make web programming dramatically easier. Java the language is an ugly collection of the worst cliches in computing over the past 30 years. "I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone." -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003 Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 12:45:41 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #125,765 by deSitter 11/14/03 9:18:51 PM Reply	And why is that interesting? I don't know what he means "easier" - that's too vague to be interesting. Can you fill in some details? What's so difficult? -drl
Post #125,772 by tuberculosis 11/14/03 10:18:23 PM 8/21/07 12:46:45 PM Reply	If you look at salaries the J2EE developers/architects are pulling down 10-30% more cash than say people who do kernel hacking or device drivers. To me that seems wrong as the latter definitely requires more skill. OTOH, 75% of J2EE development has nothing to do with writing code - its fucking bookkeeping - which is what makes it such a drag. What I find interesting is that the leading app server vendor is willing to come out and say that its too complicated. You'd think they'd be more interested in maintaining the status quo. So I find the honesty refreshing. "I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone." -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003 Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 12:46:45 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #125,785 by FuManChu 11/15/03 12:09:47 AM Reply	Since when does more skill == more profit?
Post #125,786 by admin 11/15/03 12:49:03 AM Reply	Depends on your outlook... Making the beast perform does require a certain amount of skill. :-P Of course, if you don't use EJB, a lot of the bookkeeping goes away. BTW, good call on the Rod Johnson book. I'm digging it. He has a lot of good bad things to say about J2EE. I'm looking into his [link\|http://www.springframework.org/\|Spring Framework], as well -- it's become a full-fledged open source project. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #125,788 by deSitter 11/15/03 1:10:28 AM Reply	Mission statement J 2EE should be easier to use It's best to program to interfaces, rather than classes. Spring reduces the complexity cost of using interfaces to zero. JavaBeans offer a great way of configuring applications. OO design is more important than any implementation technology, such as J2EE. Checked exceptions are overused in Java. A framework shouldn't force you to catch exceptions you're unlikely to be able to recover from. For non-experts, could you elaborate on this, based on your experience? -drl
Post #125,935 by broomberg 11/16/03 8:05:59 PM Reply	Supply and demand Not a big call for deice driver writers or kernel hackers.
Post #126,024 by ben_tilly 11/17/03 10:36:14 AM Reply	Plus the relative supply is greater Kernel hacking is more fun than J2EE. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #126,118 by tuberculosis 11/17/03 4:07:01 PM Reply	Ain't that the truth (more fun). "I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone." -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003

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