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New Re: Taxing credulity

First: The upgrade was cooerced. There was no option to purchase needed additional licenses without purchasing unnecessary upgrades to all systems. I'll also note that you ask for evidence, then gainsay it. So: you're calling me and Mr. Rheinlander liars? Is that it?

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File conversions and retraining costs apply to the option of switching to an alternate office suite / operating environment. This is what would have been incurred Plan B (switching to a non-Microsoft suite and/or OS) were elected. Plan C is, of course, the forced upgrade. Plan A was the option prohibited by Microsoft: retain existing infrastructure and aquire additional software. As the original post makes clear: nuke Novell, purchase 260,000 upgrades, and buy a fleet of helicoptors was cheaper than the option of moving away from Microsoft.

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Of course, we wouldn't expect you to read with comprehension.

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And you flat out lie: the company did not need to transition 260,000 dekstops. It was attempting to upgrade them and was refused the upgrades unless Novell were banished.

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Your comments suggest that forcing aquisition of sufficient numbers of Microsoft server licenses to replace 1,600 Novell instances is somehow acceptable business practices. Is this a valid interpretation of your comments, Andrea? If not, please clarify.

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And as a clue to you: [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/AyeWeeCodes|Wee Codes]. Particularly [quote\\]The quote tag[quote\\]. Or <blockquote type="cite">blockquote</blockquote>.

--\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
   Keep software free.     Oppose the CBDTPA.     Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
New Re: Taxing credulity
I'll concede the points in the 2nd paragraph of your last post

however when you accuse me of flat out lying that is absurd

the original document said that MS refused to sell them 260,000 upgraded copies of Windows and Office (no legacy word in sight, although that is one of your obsessions)unless....

that statement can only have meaning if that company intended to buy them in the first place

if they intended to buy them in the 1st place, they must have wanted them
if they didn't want them, then MS's refusal to sell wouldn't bother them

the coercion discussed related to dumping Novell
I merely inquired as to the form of the alleged coercion

taken the way you see it, this would be a clearcut example of illegally leveraging the monopoly
much clearer that the stuff about the browser, middleware, Real and other issues that require a great deal of interpretation (and formed the basis of the govt case against MS)

it could be that the co. never reported its victimization to the authorities
anti-MS folks might say they were 'scared' or 'intimidated'
others might say they were bought off

in any case the story is apochryphal or perhaps anecdotal at best

A

you can call me Andrea all you want but I still won't call you Karsie-Warsie

Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
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All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
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New Umm... that's the point
they wanted the desktops and office, but wanted to keep their novell servers. MSFT refused to sell them the desktops and office unless they also got rid of the novell servers.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Concede the points
I'll concede the points in the 2nd paragraph of your last post
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I could say that one out of six ain't bad. But I'd be lying.

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however when you accuse me of flat out lying that is absurd
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It's useful to know, in dealing with you, that "lying" is "truth".

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\r\n

the original document said that MS refused to sell them 260,000 upgraded copies of Windows and Office (no legacy word in sight, although that is one of your obsessions)unless....

\r\n\r\n

that statement can only have meaning if that company intended to buy them in the first place

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Just out of curiosity, and certainly in no expectation of a rational or consistent answer, I'd be curious as to how you interpret the following statement:

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\r\nI sat across the table from Microsoft as they forced a large multi-national \r\noil company to eliminate all the Novell servers, and move to NT, as \r\nMicro$oft refused to sell them 260,000 upgraded copies of Windows and \r\nOffice unless they did so.\r\n
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if they intended to buy them in the 1st place, they must have wanted them\r\nif they didn't want them, then MS's refusal to sell wouldn't bother them

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the coercion discussed related to dumping Novell\r\nI merely inquired as to the form of the alleged coercion<?p>\r\n

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The refusal to sell A unless B were also purchased and C eliminated, at an alternative cost of D..

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    \r\n
  • A == 260,000 Windows desktops.
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  • B == Windows servers to replace 1,300 Novell servers.
  • \r\n
  • C == 1,300 Novell servers.
  • \r\n
  • D == retraining and migration costs for a quarter-million employees and billions of documents.
  • \r\n
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\r\ntaken the way you see it, this would be a clearcut example of illegally leveraging the monopoly\r\n
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Indeed. It is.

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\r\nit could be that the co. never reported its victimization to the authorities\r\nanti-MS folks might say they were 'scared' or 'intimidated'\r\nothers might say they were bought off\r\n
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...or all of the above. Microsoft's sales literature is replete with references to selling to decisionmakers, not technical staff. [link|http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/business/97/10/23/compaq-microsoft.2-0.html|And threatening customers with withholding products or preferential licensing term].

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\r\nin any case the story is apochryphal or perhaps anecdotal at best\r\n
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Another lie. It's [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=123498|substantially documented and independently verified].

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\r\nyou can call me Andrea all you want but I still won't call you Karsie-Warsie\r\n
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Ain't it the damnedest thing when you can tell someone the truth, rub their nose in it, document it, substantiate it, repeatedly, endlessly, and they still insist on getting it wrong? Innit it, Andrea?

--\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
   Keep software free.     Oppose the CBDTPA.     Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
New Re: Concede the points
an\ufffdec\ufffddot\ufffdal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nk-dtl)
adj.
also an\ufffdec\ufffddot\ufffdic (-dtk) or an\ufffdec\ufffddot\ufffdi\ufffdcal (--kl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes.
Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: \ufffdThere are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems\ufffd (C. Claiborne Ray).


as in 'I sat across the table.....'

for the xth and last time, I never denied your hysterical ravings about coercion, I merely have inquired as to the form.
repeating the word 'forced' is insufficient
what form did this 'forcing' take?

you also fail to understand the point that the oil company wished to purchase something from MS ( I know this goes against your worldview, where no one wants to buy anything from MS )
that is the only point I made in regard to the 260,000 desktops -- that the company wanted Office and Windows (please don't repeat that MS refused to sell them unless.... - we've got that)

A
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
[link|http://wxxe.org|Tune In]
Expand Edited by andread Nov. 10, 2003, 10:11:49 AM EST
New Eyewitness testimony

...is apparently what you call "anecdotes".

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Kirk was there. You were not. The verifiable components of his story check out. Burden of proof is for you to show that there is a conflict.

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The remainder of your comments have been addressed and dismissed or disproved at least three times. I invoke [link|http://www.4reference.net/encyclopedias/wikipedia/Khendon_s_Law.html|Khendon's Law].

--\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
   Keep software free.     Oppose the CBDTPA.     Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
     Great gem on the cost of a Microsoft "forced upgrade" - (kmself) - (22)
         Read "Information Rules" - (ben_tilly)
         Re: Great gem on the cost of a Microsoft "forced upgrade" - (andread) - (19)
             And what sort of verification would you have in mind? - (kmself) - (16)
                 Re: And what sort of verification would you have in mind? - (andread) - (15)
                     I no longer want to play ... - (drewk)
                     The costs you cite are the costs - (Arkadiy)
                     Taxing credulity - (kmself) - (12)
                         Re: Taxing credulity - (andread) - (11)
                             Re: Taxing credulity - (kmself) - (5)
                                 Re: Taxing credulity - (andread) - (4)
                                     Umm... that's the point - (jake123)
                                     Concede the points - (kmself) - (2)
                                         Re: Concede the points - (andread) - (1)
                                             Eyewitness testimony - (kmself)
                             Quit playing dumb already! - (Arkadiy) - (4)
                                 Re: Quit playing dumb already! - (deSitter) - (3)
                                     Capabilities - (kmself)
                                     Much as I would like to agree with you, - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                         well exCUUUSE ME! OK, OK, Word 97! - (deSitter)
             Yeah, sure. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                 You know I'm not one. - (mmoffitt)
         Probable scenario match - (kmself)

55 orders of magnitude bigger than it should be.
67 ms