Post #118,716
9/24/03 2:32:57 PM
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Do Not Call list put on hold by court
[link|http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/24/technology/ftc_donotcall/index.htm?cnn=yes|http://money.cnn.com...index.htm?cnn=yes] A federal court has blocked the national "do not call" list -- meant to allow consumers to stop unwanted telephone sales calls -- just days before it was scheduled to take effect.
The ruling Tuesday by the U.S. District Court in Oklahoma was a victory for the Direct Marketing Association and telemarketers who said the registry violated their rights under the First and Fifth Amendments to the Constitution. The court ruled that the Federal Trade Commission cannot enforce the do-not-call registry. Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #118,718
9/24/03 2:38:54 PM
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That doesn't surprise me.
In every case heard by the USSC putting any restriction on telemarketers has been classified as "chilling" to the First Amendment. Earliest case I remember was Riley vs. NC Federation of the Blind.
Don't look for this ruling to be reversed any time soon.
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #118,721
9/24/03 3:11:31 PM
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"Put me on your do-not-call list."
I think I got a telemarketer calling me about three months ago. Don't remember any since then.
Between that line, and following the directions at junkbuster.com, I hardly ever get any calls any more.
In that final hour, when each breath is a struggle to take, and you are looking back over your life's accomplishments, which memories would you treasure? The empires you built, or the joy you spread to others?
Therin lies the true measure of a man.
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Post #118,723
9/24/03 3:50:00 PM
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What really works.
I did some coding years ago for a telemarketing firm. If you really want to get them off your back, the next time they call ask them who they are. Then call/write/email/whatever your State Department and ask for the Consumer Protection Division. They'll mail you a form. That gets 'em going in telemarketing circles and, as a side effect, your name will come off others lists too. (These guys sell lists to each other all the time. Yours will be flagged "AG Problem"). At least that worked in the late-80's early 90's.
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #118,972
9/26/03 7:29:23 AM
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Only if you can get them to tell you
I've got a cheeky bastard with some firm that keeps telling me I won a contest - he won't tell me his info and he gets insolent when I tell him he's required by law not to call me again.
Caller ID is blocked on him - out of area or something.
How do I stop that?
BTW, the best analogy I've seen offered by the press (who are clearly for the list being implemented) is that this is the equivalent of a sign saying "No Soliciting. Solicitors will be arrested and charged with trespassing" on your phone - what was that about free speech again?
And of course 50 million voters are in favor - they've signed up.
In Java, you can't escape the creepy feeling.
--James Gosling
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Post #118,976
9/26/03 7:54:57 AM
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After you decline politely once, they are fair game
Get a referee whistle. A loud one. Keep it near the phone. On the second call, use it.
Works great with headsets...
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Post #118,979
9/26/03 8:13:19 AM
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Re: Only if you can get them to tell you
Tell 'im to fuck the fuck off.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #118,987
9/26/03 9:02:52 AM
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Free speech... blocked again.
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/25/congress.no.call/index.html|http://www.cnn.com/2...o.call/index.html] But U.S. District Judge Edward Nottingham issued an opinion blocking the list based on telemarketers' free speech rights, which could be more difficult for advocates of the list to sidestep.
"... The court finds that the FTC's do-not-call registry does not materially advance its interest in protecting privacy or curbing abusive telemarketing practices. The registry creates a burden on one type of speech based solely on its content, without a logical, coherent privacy-based or prevention-of-abuse-based reason supporting the disparate treatment of different categories of speech," Nottingham wrote. I don't see why telemarketers are fighting this. Here's a list of 50 million people that DON'T want to talk to you, and WON'T want to talk to you whether they are on a list or not. Save money by NOT calling them in the first place! Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #118,990
9/26/03 9:18:48 AM
9/26/03 9:25:14 AM
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Unforuately, I bet
while out of 100 who say "Don't bother me" there's 1, maybe 2 that will actually buy something when they hear "that incredible offer'.
Telemarketers live on that 1%.
The easist solution to this - charge more for business lines. (Or charge per phone call.) Make it uneconomical to call people and this business model disappears.
PS: Of course, the other solution is to provide Telemarkets an example of [link|http://www.the-dma.org/aboutdma/contactthedma.shtml|OUR FREE SPEECH].
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Post #119,122
9/26/03 6:40:34 PM
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Toll rates....
First, this stuff is a mint for telcos (and need I remind you what business is so messed up that it would have to get much, much better to merely stink?). High-volume, predictable usage patterns with steady revenues. That's business you love. \r\n\r\n Second problem: move the stuff offshore. US rates don't apply (though connect tarrifs do). VOIP cuts through much of that. It's simply too cheap to be able to call you. \r\n\r\n I don't see free speech. I do see equal protection. But that's only through the SPRR "precedent", which really wasn't. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #118,991
9/26/03 9:40:00 AM
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IMO, a better law would be...
what some guy in California started doing years ago. Can't remember his name, but I do remember a 60 minutes story (or some news magazine) about him. Years ago, you didn't "own" a telephone - you leased it from whomever was your telephone company. For some time people have been purchasing their own telephones. This guy would find out who was calling him and then say, "Thank you very much for using my property to sell your product. I decline its purchase. However, you have just incurred a fee of $25.00 for using my property to market your product." The guy would send them an invoice and if they didn't pay, sue them in Small Claims Court. He won every single time.
A better law would be something to that effect. The teleco's know who the telemarketing firms are, they could easily credit our telephone bills each and every time a telemarketing firm used our property to market their product(s). Then the teleco's could add that amount to the telemarketing firms telephone bill, in a similar fashion to what they used to do with 900 numbers.
Of course, this won't happen because the teleco's make HUGE money from telemarketing firms. But, it is a better idea than a "Don't call list", imo, because I cannot think of an objection to charging some one for the use of your property to market their product. Billboards do it, cable tv providers do it, radio does it, etc. why not the little guy?
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #118,999
9/26/03 9:57:40 AM
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Why Telemarketers are fighting it
because they see it as lost income. 50 Million numbers they cannot call, they see as losing billions of dollars in potential income. They waited until recently to file, after it became so popular that 50 million people signed up for it. So they found a judge that would take their case and block it. But I heard that Congress voted to give the government agency behind it the power to block the calls, and all that is needed is for Bush to sign the bill.
You see, they are really agressive when they call, and can get people to buy their product or service by trying to trick them, or by refusing to take no for an answer and coming up with reasons why they should buy. I've been tricked because I've said "No" to services and I got them anyway. Like phone cards, credit insurance, etc. I distinctly said "No" yet they signed me up for them anyway. Then I had to call them up and cancel after I got a bill, and they always try to get me to stay on as a customer anyway. "What part of No didn't you understand?" I usually tell them. Usually they have thick accents, hard to understand, and it is quite possible they didn't understand what I said, or maybe they did and greedily signed me up for the service or product anyway just to make a sale. I also found that if you hang up on them, they take it as a "yes".
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #119,012
9/26/03 10:20:58 AM
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Being an advocate of free speech, I don't get it
They're free to speak all they want...and I'm free to not have to listen to it. I'm also free to not have to listen to the Klan, to Jehovah's Witnesses, or to Republicans.
How does this second freedom interfere with the first?
jb4
Boy I'd like to see those words on a PR banner behind [Treasury Secretary John] Snow at the podium:
Jobs and Growth: Just Wait.
John J. Andrew, unemployed programmer; see jobforjohn.com
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Post #119,082
9/26/03 2:02:03 PM
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For me, they're talking about the wrong right.
This is, imo, a privacy right issue. Yes, I don't have to have a telephone. Yes, I took action interrupt the sanctity of my home by allowing the teleco to "connect" it to the outside world. However, doing so should not preclude my right to "evict" anyone from my home that I choose. My action clearly, again imo, should not allow parties I am unfamiliar with to have free use of my home to market their products.
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #119,090
9/26/03 3:53:23 PM
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Brings up an interesting corollary point:
If I have a sign on my properly stating "No Solicitors", does that violate said solicitors' right to "free speech"?
jb4
Boy I'd like to see those words on a PR banner behind [Treasury Secretary John] Snow at the podium:
Jobs and Growth: Just Wait.
John J. Andrew, unemployed programmer; see jobforjohn.com
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Post #119,091
9/26/03 4:07:49 PM
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Problem is...
...that the FTC listed specific exceptions...and by doing so...created "differences" between types of commercial speech. Had they not excepted politicians and charities...there would have been no grounds for the free speech angle.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #119,095
9/26/03 4:12:39 PM
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Bah,.
I don't want them calling either.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #119,096
9/26/03 4:20:01 PM
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Me neither...
...and they didn't make that exception clear when I enrolled in the list, either...which pissed me off.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #119,101
9/26/03 5:01:41 PM
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Charities? Ugh.
That lets in "Professional Fund Raisers". The company I did work for obstensively was raising money for a troopers benevolent association. Trouble was it was a handful of troopers who set up their own 501(c), hired this firm, then used around 50K of the money raised/year to send their kids off to camps while the for-profit kept roughly 2 million/year.
IF anybody calls "on behalf" of any cop association, ask them to snail mail you info and a form for sending them money (if you're inclined to help out your "local" police/troopers/fireman's association. Telemarketers are loathe to send you snail mail because they're subject to mail fraud laws - the phone gives them free reign to lie their asses off to you. Apparently, lying is protected speech.
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #119,111
9/26/03 5:24:37 PM
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Had one of those calls today.
And to misquote Paul Harvey, "now I know the rest of the story."
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #119,119
9/26/03 6:18:16 PM
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The appeal mentions privacy
[link|http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3516481|http://asia.reuters....s&storyID=3516481] FTC Chairman Timothy Muris said Nottingham's interpretation ignored personal privacy rights that were also enshrined in the U.S. Constitution.
"Our constitution allows consumers to choose not to receive commercial telemarketing calls," Muris said in a statement. "We will seek every recourse to give American consumers a choice to stop unwanted telemarketing calls."
Several observers said the FTC had a good chance of winning the appeal based on a previous Supreme Court decision that allows consumers to block junk mail. Another piece of BS from the telemarketers: "We're not in favor of the federal government eliminating 2 million jobs for a political sound bite in some sort of one-size-fits-all, ham-handed policy," said Tim Searcy, executive director of the American Teleservices Association. How does this get rid of jobs? Original pool of numbers: as a guess, maybe ~300M. So they take off 50M. What telemarketing firm can get through 250M phone numbers? Say 10,000 employees. 100 calls per day for each employee. That's 25,000 days, or 68 years before they get through the list of numbers... why would anyone lose a job? And how many telemarketers ARE there? 2 million jobs lost? That's like 2% of the working public! Maybe there is some truth to the comparison of telemarketers to cockroaches... they must be breeding in the call centers. Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #119,137
9/26/03 8:02:29 PM
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I've been a telemarketer
both profit and non-profit. It was a high school job - evenings in the boiler room with a pre-typed script. You were paid commission of money collected plus hourly rate. I didn't see anybody depending on this for their livlihood except for the managers and company owners. I did see a fair amount of fraud wrt misrepresentation - not actual fraud - but misleading pitches that implied this was going for an AIDS education program - the company pocketed the bulk of the money and used a pittance to print up a few lame fliers and put them in area coffee shops.
I'm not too worried about the loss of jobs in that industry.
In Java, you can't escape the creepy feeling.
--James Gosling
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Post #119,138
9/26/03 8:14:23 PM
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Odd, me too
..for Merrill Lynch in Cleveland, for summer quick cash while on extended leave from Atlanta and Ga. Tech. Lasted a month or so.
I sold government bond packages to people in Parma etc with who sometimes sported funny accents...
"Gahferment? Vaht gahferment?"
-drl
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Post #119,170
9/27/03 9:06:50 AM
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Tried it once but didn't inhale
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
[link|http://wxxe.org|Tune In]
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Post #118,992
9/26/03 9:46:29 AM
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How to block out of area calls
Your local Telco will have a service called something like Call Request or Anonymous blocker that has the caller identify themselves if it is Anonymous or Out Of Area. They either speak their name or tone in their number, if they tone in their number it appears on Caller ID, if they speak their name it will be played for you as you answer the phone.
I usually just ignore the Out Of Area or Anonymous calls, but some are from Cell Phones or Calling Cards or people who paid to keep their Caller ID anonymous. Also some are from other countries or part of the US that doesn't have Caller ID (Hatfeild and McCoy Bell from Bugtussle, Arkansas).
I bought a device called the "Telezapper" which costs like $30USD to $40USD in stores. It can listen for tones that Telemarketers use to see if the phone is active and give back a tone that says the phone is disconnected, etc. It doesn't block every call, and I think they found a way around it by now. There are other devices that do almost the same thing. There are other devices like the Phone Butler, which you press a button and it tells them "I'm sorry, we do not accept this type of phone call, please take our number off of your list." and then hangs up. Of course you can tell them yourself for free.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #119,023
9/26/03 10:57:21 AM
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wish that would work for me
but there's no caller ID info when mom & dad call from Mexico :-/
Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #118,724
9/24/03 3:50:09 PM
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Dave Barry had a great idea
[link|http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/dave_barry/6649728.htm|Ask not what telemarketers can do to you] Leading the charge for the telemarketing industry is the American Teleservices Association (suggested motto: 'Some Day, We Will Get a Dictionary and Look Up 'Services' ''). This group argues that, if its members are prohibited from calling people who do not want to be called, then two million telemarketers will lose their jobs. Of course, you could use pretty much the same reasoning to argue that laws against mugging cause unemployment among muggers. But that would be unfair. Muggers rarely intrude into your home.
So what's the answer? Is there a constitutional way that we telephone customers can have our peace, without inconveniencing the people whose livelihoods depend on keeping their legal right to inconvenience us? Maybe we could pay the telemarketing industry not to call us, kind of like paying ''protection money'' to organized crime. Or maybe we could actually hire organized crime to explain our position to telemarketing-industry executives, who would then be given a fair opportunity to respond, while the cement was hardening.
I'm just thinking out loud here. I'm sure you have a better idea for how we can resolve our differences with the telemarketing industry. If you do, call me. No, wait, I have a better idea: Call the American Teleservices Association, toll-free, at 1-877-779-3974, and tell them what you think. I'm sure they'd love to hear your constitutionally protected views! Be sure to wipe your mouthpiece afterward.
And his great idea had a great response - [link|http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/6739380.htm|Dave Barry column unleashes flood of calls on telemarketing group]
''It's in the few thousand,'' said Tim Searcy, executive director of the ATA, who was straining to take the matter lightly. ``It's difficult not to see some malice in Mr. Barry's intent.''
...
Barry was unrepentant. ''I feel just terrible, especially if they were eating or anything,'' the Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist and author said Wednesday. ``They have phones like the rest of us have phones. Their attitude seems to be if you have a phone, people are allowed to call you.''
Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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