This ought to make Marlowe happy

Post #118,116 by lincoln 9/18/03 12:31:08 PM Reply	This ought to make Marlowe happy It's time we Americans came to terms with something: France is not just our annoying ally. It is not just our jealous rival. France is becoming our enemy. If you add up how France behaved in the run-up to the Iraq war (making it impossible for the Security Council to put a real ultimatum to Saddam Hussein that might have avoided a war), and if you look at how France behaved during the war (when its foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, refused to answer the question of whether he wanted Saddam or America to win in Iraq), and if you watch how France is behaving today (demanding some kind of loopy symbolic transfer of Iraqi sovereignty to some kind of hastily thrown together Iraqi provisional government, with the rest of Iraq's transition to democracy to be overseen more by a divided U.N. than by America), then there is only one conclusion one can draw: France wants America to fail in Iraq. [link\|http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/18/opinion/18FRIE.html\|Thomas Friedman column] lincoln "Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times [link\|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm\|VB/SQL resume] [link\|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/tandem_resume.htm\|Tandem resume] [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #118,121 by marlowe 9/18/03 1:02:26 PM 9/18/03 1:03:14 PM Reply	Not exactly news. Pundits have been saying this since last year. Maybe the French should ask themselves why. P.S. Did you really only pick up on this just now? ---------------------------------------------------------------- DEAL WITH IT. Americans: a pack, not a herd. Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas? [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html] Edited by marlowe Sept. 18, 2003, 01:03:14 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #118,141 by lincoln 9/18/03 4:58:47 PM Reply	Nope P.S. Did you really only pick up on this just now? I have been reading this forum for quite some time. It's quite a whirlwind of opinions; some I agree with, some I don't. Various posters such as yourself provide information from sources with which I'm not familiar. While sometimes I don't like what's presented, this community has broadened my scope over time. lincoln "Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times [link\|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm\|VB/SQL resume] [link\|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/tandem_resume.htm\|Tandem resume] [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #118,122 by Another Scott 9/18/03 1:08:03 PM Reply	Friedman only hints at a few other issues. It's a good read. Thanks for the pointer. But Friedman only hints at a few other issues that are also important. 1) Recall that France and Germany were hoping to assert political leadership in the EU (esp. last fall) and hoped to be seen as the ones who set the direction for them. Many of the smaller European countries balked. 2) France wants the US to have less influence in Europe. 3) France has had a very long tradition of being suspicious of US power in Europe and NATO. Recall that DeGaulle [link\|http://www.fas.org/man/nato/news/1999/99031204_tpo.htm\|pulled France out of the NATO command structure in 1966]. They did, though, agree with Reagan's decision to deploy Pershing II missiles. That was probably made easier by France's long tradition of having an independent nuclear deterrent, and Mitterrand's quite different from Chirac. As Friedman says, France wants to be seen as a world power. I agree with him that those in France that advocate policies like these don't seem to look ahead to the consequences. But France's suspicion of US power and desire to be independent is nothing new. Cheers, Scott.
Post #118,124 by mmoffitt 9/18/03 1:14:19 PM Reply	Indeed. But France's suspicion of US power and desire to be independent is nothing new. Nor ill advised. I envy France. How much better it must be to be revered as the the state of love, art and the city of light than to be revered as the world's greatest ass-kicker. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #118,128 by JayMehaffey 9/18/03 2:09:14 PM Reply	Re: This ought to make Marlowe happy If France were serious, it would be using its influence within the European Union to assemble an army of 25,000 Eurotroops, and a $5 billion reconstruction package, and then saying to the Bush team: Here, we're sincere about helping to rebuild Iraq, but now we want a real seat at the management table. Instead, the French have put out an ill-conceived proposal, just to show that they can be different, without any promise that even if America said yes Paris would make a meaningful contribution. Why would France do that? The US has already stated that while we will be happy to use any troops and money that are available, we are not going to let anybody else have any real say in how things are run in Iraq. The events leading up to the war made it perfectly clear that the US is willing to ignore any amount of international pressure and unpopularity. If France where to try what Friedman is suggesting they would end up in a worse posistion. What would happen is that the White House would offer France some powerless symbolic posistion, and then France would refuse. But at that point it looks like France is being a jerk for not providing the troops and support it offered. Jay

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