Post #117,256
9/9/03 3:25:57 PM
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I did a stupid thing. Opinions sought.
For the first time in my adult life, I booked a flight without knowing what type of aircraft I was being booked on. The flight is next February to the Dominican Republic. My wife and I and two other couples are going down for a much needed vacation. Here's my problem. The flight is on an Airbus A320-214 (the fly-by-wire jet). I, like many, have grave concerns about sitting in any aircraft where the pilots are prohibited from directly controlling the control surfaces (remember it was an A-300 that crashed in New York in November, 2001 when the tail came off, also on the way to the DR - but that's a different, although related issue).
I've read the NTSB reports on this aircraft and notwithstanding the wisdom of non-metalic airframe and control surfaces, it seems to me that there is a fundamental problem in design with an aircraft that will refuse pilot input. A classic example of this is the minor accident in which +1.7 horizontal trim was input instead of -1.7, the plane took off at too low an airspeed and countermanded the pilots effort to put the nose down with the stick! Fortunately, he just killed the engine and banged back down on the runway, but there was another data entry error involving this aircraft with Lufthansa that resulted in all aboard dead - with NO warnings for the pilot (the aircraft was flying in accordance with the erroneous data entry, so the computer thought everything was hunkie-dorrie).
As most of you know, I absolutely love to fly (especially N7522T, my 172) but I've got to admit that I am afraid of Airbus aircraft in general and the A-320 in particular.
My question is, should I tell my wife and friends of my concerns? I know that "probably" nothing will happen. But I also know that a little wake turbulence brought one of these babies down and my life depends upon the accuracy of data entry into this beast - with no way for the pilot to "turn off" computer control. The damned thing will let you fly directly into the ground and negate the pilot's efforts to prevent that from happening.
What would you guys/gals do?
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,260
9/9/03 3:39:16 PM
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You've got time...
Just look for another airline flying Boeings? Or is "Mega-Death" OK with you, too? For those who don't know, MD is for MacDonnell Douglas.
MD-11's got coined "Mega-Death" after a few MD-11 accidents.
Glen Austin
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Post #117,263
9/9/03 3:42:47 PM
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Was hoping for a 737 ;-)
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,417
9/10/03 11:38:43 PM
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Idiot
737s have crashed with uncontrolled rudder motion - most planes have had a catastrophe here and there.
I begin to see who you are. You became a pilot to prove to yourself that you are "macho". Well, you a miserable pudknocking whiner in my book.
-drl
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Post #117,420
9/10/03 11:42:27 PM
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You're being cranky. Go to bed.
You did see his wink, didn't you?
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #117,474
9/11/03 10:16:20 AM
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He, and likely others are ticked off at me for injudicious..
use of words. See Flame for details ;-) But thanks.
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,262
9/9/03 3:42:35 PM
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Are you (or they) the nervous type?
If you're worried, then change the tickets. Vacation time is precious and preparing for it is hectic. You don't want to be worried the whole time preparing for the flight (then worrying during the vacation about the flight home).
If the peace of mind is worth the cost of changing, then do so. If not, just make sure your flight insurance is paid up. >:-)
I wouldn't worry about it myself. But tell your wife about your concerns either way.
Good luck.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #117,264
9/9/03 3:45:07 PM
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It's a package deal, dunno what my options might be.
No, I'm not usually nervous - and never in the air, provided I know what I'm flying in. Since I'm the only one in the crowd that is a pilot, I'm afraid my, admittedly, somewhat unjustified concern about the A-320 would be given far greater weight with these folks than it should be.
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,266
9/9/03 3:56:37 PM
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Quit worrying about it.
Better safety rating than the alternative jets on that route...flybywire notwithstanding.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #117,274
9/9/03 5:57:10 PM
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I think it's a "principle" thing with me.
I trust human pilots more than I trust computers. It's just hard for me to imagine that an aircraft could be designed with the knowledge that if it gets into real trouble, the pilot cannot do anything about it if the computer onboard thinks the risk is too great. Couple that with the various "tag wagging" on takeoff, composite failures (sorry folks, you can overstress anything, but at least metal will try to unload part of the excess load by bending) and it does, really scare me. Which is a very strange feeling for me. I've never really understood why people are afraid to fly, now I do.
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,277
9/9/03 6:11:55 PM
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Point is...
...that though your concerns are, on face, valid...the safety record of the airbus is better than that of its primary competition in flight today.
So relax...you're travelling the safest way possible on one of the safest planes in the air.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #117,334
9/10/03 10:22:02 AM
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Thanks.
I wrote a longish post below, so I won't repeat myself. Maybe I should just take a longer vacation and fly myself down there :-D
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,267
9/9/03 3:58:22 PM
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Get some numbers
Specifically, determine the number of flights versus the number of accidents.
Statistically, it's still the safest way to travel regardless of airframe. You decide. Personally, I think you're overstating the problem.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #117,271
9/9/03 4:54:44 PM
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Don't say a thing. Put seat back and snooze...
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Post #117,283
9/9/03 7:03:04 PM
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Or drugs
Mild tranquilizer.
This seems to be a true phobia, not grounded in the statistics.
Since you are a pilot and know what you are doing, you naturally trust other pilots more than in inanimate hunk of hardware. Sorry, but it is a misplaced trust.
If you feel the pilot is capable of the type of data entry error you are using as an example, would you trust him on the stick?
Get a bit of valium from your Dr. for the trip.
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Post #117,333
9/10/03 10:17:37 AM
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I'd be more likely to trust him with the stick.
The interfaces for the electronics in the A-320, although improved, are not exactly what you'd call "intuitive". For instance, you have to look closely at the little display panels to make sure you're in the right "entry mode". That's what happened to the Lufthansa flight, they entered the right number -3.3 for 3.3 degree glide, but had inadvertently pressed another key before hand that caused the computer to read the -3.3 as a descent rate of 3,300ft/min.
They saw the trees fill the windscreen but because of computer control, they could not pull up - the computer overrode their control inputs. So yeah, I do trust them with the yoke more than I trust them at data entry. They are, after all, pilots, not data entry clerks.
It makes more sense to me to trust the pilot at flying the airplane - something they all have thousands of hours doing, than it does the unseen s/w engineers, chip manufacturers, a & p's who work on them (one accident was narrowly avoided when a mechanic accidently crossed two pins from the captain's control yoke making the inputs reversed, they nearly crashed on take-off), etc.
If I'm completely honest, the truth is that if you fly in a composite aircraft and you get into the kind of turbulence that might cause structural failure, you're pretty much hosed. Assuming everything is okay with the software, connections, etc., the computer won't allow you to overstress aircraft even in an emergency situation. That's actually good in the case of composites because, as the passengers and crew of American 587 know too well, composites don't bend, they break. But hey, composite aircraft are cheaper to fly and it's all about the money isn't it?
I said before I was "scared". On further reflection, that's a little too strong. I'm uncomfortable with idea of flying in that aircraft because I do not like its design and I do not like the material that is used to construct it. It has nothing to do with its track history. I guess I'm blurring my decision making process as a pilot with that I should use as a passenger. I am, perhaps wrongly, disturbed by the fact that if I were PIC in this case, my Go/No-Go decision would be No-Go. It also didn't help me to see American Airline pilots on a Discovery special saying they won't fly Airbuses (we have some ATP's at our field who say the same thing).
I've pretty much decided to tell my wife about my thoughts and let her judge whether we should say anything to the others. We will probably not change a thing, and with every bump during the flight I'll drive my fingers deep into the armrests.
Again, thanks for the input.
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,352
9/10/03 2:31:12 PM
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But, ignorance is bliss!
No one is more interested in a safe flight then the pilot, no matter what the plane is (Atta and such excepted). And, perhaps with more hours on the Airbus, the pilots are less likely to err in interacting with the controls. Telling your wife will only worry her unnecessarily. Maybe after your return home.
Alex
"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
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Post #117,353
9/10/03 2:50:09 PM
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That's probably the best advice yet.
But I probably wouldn't get away with it. Today is our 20th wedding anniversary and she knows me better than anyone. If I feel even the slightest trepidation about this flight, I could be in even more trouble for not talking about it up front.
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,355
9/10/03 2:52:51 PM
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Congratulations
Today is our 20th wedding anniversary and she knows me better than anyone. No mean feat in this day and age. -----
Steve
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Post #117,356
9/10/03 2:55:32 PM
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Thank you.
She is a saint for putting up with me this long, but you already deduced that from my posts, didn't you? ;-)
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,357
9/10/03 2:57:40 PM
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Congratulations to you and Robin on your 20th!
My wife and I celebrated out 42nd last Friday.
Alex
"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
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Post #117,359
9/10/03 3:00:56 PM
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Wow, not that is impressive! Congratulations!
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,386
9/10/03 6:40:08 PM
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FWIW, I agree with your rationale implicitly..
I feel the same way about "electronics", having spent a couple careers watching both their random failures and.. the subtle mind-farts of the only Too-human designers.. ('Doze Anyone?).
A particle accelerator complex is about as 'complex' as it gets, and employs the best techno around - across every 'physics' aspect of material strength, temperature, moving large & small objects (magnets, say) rapidly via hydraulics: often within a vacuum too.. yada yada
Now.. re This Case:
throw in the 'composite' Red Herring, cost-goals for that Corner Office, golf + the usual dissembling in any large org [NASA Anyone?] and - what do you get?
I'd adopt a similar analysis to yours, of WHY, and stick with it:
I AM responsible for what I have actively experienced, thus believe I may call 'Know'. As are you.
My Experience - makes my doubts now often.. instinctual - as well as intellectual. YMMV.
The FACT that that Lufthansa PILOT *COULD NOT* via any means - override a *BAD FUCKING DATA ENTRY*
- means that he is
- a FUCKING ACCOUNTANT IN FACT.
S/He is NOT any longer A PILOT of *ANYTHING*. <<<
I would not {knowingly} move my sorry ass into 3-D space: on any HAL-9000 with-ALL-HAL's-WARTS such as, you are describing to be --
Now in full cost-effective ROI bean-counted PRODUCTION. {shudder}
(I fly so rarely, I was unaware of this absurdity you describe)
And I personally don't give a SHIT about the Econ Stat Numbers quoted a bit up the thread, nor have I personally.. that religious faith in the Std Deviation which rules the Econ minds of today's offices and PHBs.
NOT when the OPERATING PARADIGM is demonstrably AS FUCKED AS THIS ONE.
I grok the need not to overstress the pretty (read: (CHEAP) plastic-fantastic enclosure of the cargo-sheep);
THAT indeed demands some feedback override of ORDINARY commands. Yet-
Sometimes.. when you are about to die -
You NEED to TRY anyway..
IF YOU CAN.
BUT ... This entire LOCK-OUT of all human intelligence, has a word for its designers -- all inextricably-entwined with the spreadsheet, the velocity of money and the Armani suits {and the rise of workplace Dumbth}:
hubris and ultimately --
mistrust of the human experience, discretion and intelligence of a highly skilled class of experts: pilots.
This is about dumbing-down THAT which cannot BE DUMBED DOWN. Again. Precisely like: Windoze 'Security', a concept which Lives only via bafflegab and language murder, as all here seem to testify.
(Hmm do *You Guys* actually 'Know' Anything, either?)
Ergo - were it I?
I'd Fight to Switch and, Tell
Them Exactly Why
(and tell them that. "I will also be mentioning the source of my concerns, from this day forward - to all who will listen": IF their reply is patronizing in the slightest).
The switch should occur for Free too, IMadmittedly-BiasedOpinion ;-)
Air Travel: now a Pepsi commodity, run by the same mindsets as brought us multi- [!] Billionaires (along with $6/hr) through the mere math manipulations, dissembling as create all the classes within 'classless-societies'.
Passengers + Data-entry Clerk-Manager as, altogether statistically-expendable pork/sheep.
(in next-Quarter-speak, of course)
But then, what do I know
Ashton
PS - remember that tiny computer overload in July '69, when the moon landing was a few seconds from Abort? I forget the Alarm '4-digit number' now -- but THAT was a rilly Simple device, such that its' every possible state had been mapped and tested, prior. The Pilot Understood that, and even.. why he had overshot.. and acted From His Human Intelligence. QED
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Post #117,387
9/10/03 6:56:46 PM
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Sentient LRPD sez____Due to a vast miscalculation,
it was accidentally swallowed by a small dog.
{or forest}
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Post #117,392
9/10/03 8:17:11 PM
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Nuclear power plant controls.
Many, many moons ago, a friend had interviewed [link|http://www.foxboro.com/|Foxboro], which at the time did work on the controls for nuclear power plants. He was told that all controls knobs and switches could not and did not in fact do anything directly. The changed state of these controls was sensed and interpreted buy a computer program that would evaluate the appropriateness of the request and act on it if it was reasonable.
For one thing, this prevents someone doing away with himself in a "blaze of glory".
Alex
"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
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Post #117,405
9/10/03 10:37:32 PM
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Not too comparable, maybe
Foxboro's seems an appropriate control method; there IS no "steering wheel" to keep you from hitting the ground. Unclear too, of there being no override? of significant matters as say - closed manual valves for the ECC? (Emgcy. Cooling System) and such. I'd very much doubt that there can be No Human Override, given the n! possibly bizarre er physical failures imaginable.
Besides, for the US's determined non-standardization upon the actual design, construction of our many plants: so is each one a necessarily New Thing to derive safety factors about, etc. No savings of scale.. more chance for screwups. Anyway.. the reactor is a lot about physics, nothing about aerodynamics and with few random outside *effects - a whole nother ball o wax, I think.
* like that poor Lufhansa Clerk-pilot watching his plane descend towards the containment dome? with the assurance of the True-Believing Dumb Machine: bizness' perfect replacement for the CIEIO.
Ashton
Informed Selective Luddite
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Post #117,451
9/11/03 8:42:56 AM
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Does your car have antil-lock brakes?
If so, your foot on the brake pedal is only a suggestion of how hard to brake.
If not, then are you sure you're one of the <1% of all drivers who can get better control than modern anti-lock? Really? Are you sure? Even on wet leaves that you didn't see around a curve?
I don't usually pull the Luddite card, and this particular plane may be a little too early a generation for this to apply, but highly profiecient operators of anything have always balked when someone tried to automate control. There were people who didn't trust carburetors to mix fuel as well as they did by adjusting the petcock. When's the last time you adjusted your fuel/air mixture on the fly?
I don't know enough about this particular plane to have an opinion, but there will someday be a plane that is a better "pilot" than most any human operator you're likely to find. And pilots will be the last ones to trust it.
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #117,520
9/11/03 3:31:32 PM
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Re: Does your car have antil-lock brakes? Yes.. but -
Actually, I pretty much agree with the theme of your post :-\ufffd
The 'but' part:
The ABS is a completely separate unit, with its own pump (!) and hydraulic accumulator and yes! All Those Transistors.
It came on mine. Were I an anal Luddite, I could remove Fuse-30 and it would be completely out of the circuit. (I've also tested it, on a drizzly PM - you know.. often enough these suckers remain Unused for Years at a time, and - I wanted to make sure that a little of that
[recently flushed - also worth doing at least every 2 years, on the whole hyd. system of any car or thing]
fluid got flushed through all those orifices. Also - on irregularly-slippery stuff (as you describe) - only a fool would argue "I can do it Better" ;-)
As to the airplane (or a reactor or a Battleship or a ___)
I'll stick with a mantra ~ that
a) NO MACHINE possesses the (at-best) capability of juggling so many variables to reach a fuzzy-decision.. as does a properly alert and trained homo-sap mind.
B) HAL-9000 (the final release, not that alpha) is so far out of reach of our fledgling comprehension of [how dat mind Doo Dat !???] as to be simply laughable for the long foreseeable. Count widgets? perfect! Do triage about life/death? Bzzzzzzt
So nope, I won't fly in one of those MBA [1]cost-experiments any time soon.. not out of abject {{fear}} for my miserable existence, but: disdain & disgust at the presumptuousness, engineering-HUBRIS! of irreversibly LOCKING OUT the greater source of intelligence aboard! You are truly Spam in a Can, one designed by Hormel + the wet-behind-ears MBAs whose Real Mission is:
Pilot $Replacement$
(fly the planes from ground via satellite with lo-bid Accountant in a rattan cubicle in Bangalore, anyone ??)
Call it a merely personal protest at the dumbed-down digital-think 'mind' inaction.
We also serve who only stand and carp
[1] - agree with mmoffitt re the PLASTIC too
{don't need the shuttle to remind me that it BREAKS; it doesn't bend}
I've seen pics of horribly bent DC-3 airframes long ago - flyin the Hump in Burma. They LANDED!
BEND >>>> {greater greater-than} BREAK every single TIME.
The Unmitigated stat-besotted Assholes...
(designing out-of-range of the Danger, like any Chicken-Hawk would.)
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Post #117,361
9/10/03 3:12:48 PM
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My practice is Mai Tai's
Whenever traveling to a warm island for vacation.
Java is a joke, only it's not funny.
--Alan Lovejoy
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Post #117,275
9/9/03 5:57:26 PM
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Thanks All!
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #117,415
9/10/03 11:35:14 PM
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Re: I did a stupid thing. Opinions sought.
Shut up or cancel it.
Your WTC remark put you on my shitlist. Don't be a fag. Fly or not, but don't whine about it.
-drl
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Post #117,423
9/11/03 12:05:25 AM
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Its in Flame already...stay on target!
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #117,522
9/11/03 3:36:13 PM
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Yeah, BeeP: wallow in the opportunity; it's so ___Cleansing
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Post #117,525
9/11/03 4:08:02 PM
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...currently wallowing...
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #117,537
9/11/03 5:47:11 PM
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...slithering - more effective! :-\ufffd
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Post #117,475
9/11/03 10:20:51 AM
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Oh, heavens, I'm on your list? Dear me, Dear me.
Keep this sort of thing in Flame, okay?
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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