The burden of proof lies where it always does

Post #11,502 by pwhysall 10/3/01 2:24:41 PM Reply	The burden of proof lies where it always does With the person making the assertion. If you assert that I do not exist, feel free to show the evidence for that assertion. Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #11,530 by tseliot 10/3/01 3:05:03 PM Reply	Just want to make sure I understand your POV You're saying, then, it doesn't matter whether you're asserting the positive or negative case (ie - whether "God" or "no God")--what matters is assertion or no assertion. Right? That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
Post #11,534 by pwhysall 10/3/01 3:10:29 PM Reply	Yep. That's exactly right. You'll also notice that I never assert that there is no god. I simply state my lack of belief in gods, and my incredulity at the actions of my fellow man in the name of something that's less self-evident than Elvis Presley. "Ah slay thee in thuh name of Rawk'n'Raahl, uh huh!" Peter A two thirds dead maggot, and feeling quite chipper for it. [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #11,640 by brettj 10/3/01 9:18:53 PM 10/4/01 8:52:50 PM Reply	I think I see the confusion. Maybe? What I think you are saying is that maybe there is a God but you've seen so many cruel acts in the name of peoples "GOD" that it tends to make you dis-believe in a God. (Whew! That was tough to get out!) If so then we are not that far apart. I am disgusted in what people can justify in the name of their Lord, and these horrific terrorist attacks are no different. Committing suicide and cold-blooded murder in the name God is absolutely despicable. Here's the flip-side: The Bible, the Koran, etc are filled with wonderful words of wisdom and peace (and history) if people would only follow them instead of contorting them for evil purposes. Bible: Love thy neighbor as they self, don't steal, lie or bear false witness against others, etc. Koran: Do you think you can enter the garden of bliss without facing the trials and tribulations of those before you? People just need to mature a bit and learn from the mistakes of our ancestors. Either we do it now or blow ourselves up with nuclear weapons soon. Remember the Drake equation. Compassion, religious tolerance and erradication of religious radicalism are just three things that may improve the chances that we will achieve World Peace before we achieve World War 3. Lastly, I do not have any proof that God exists. Being schooled as an engineer I never could comprehend how God could really exist until about 3-4 years ago when I discovered I could not scientifically determine that the universe created itself prior to the big bang. After that, I have no problem seeing how evolution progressed to our current stage in humanity. I also see how humanity has progressed far enough to destroy itself if things don't change course. Maybe that's why I cling to the hope that religion teaches? Anyway, I'll not be disturbing you anymore since I sense that I may be annoying many people here. Peace be with you. Edited by brettj Oct. 4, 2001, 08:52:50 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #11,676 by Ashton 10/3/01 11:52:59 PM Reply	Nothing here 'annoying' Nor do I notice anything even er 'simplistic' in your observations here of: what might work -- were homo-sap just now wise enough to disassemble ALL the &%)&%-isms, save the core essays on "how not to behave like an Ass" -- and utterly vaporize the BS about "lakes of fire" along with: "70 virgins if you ___". But, you see (you do, don't you?) we aren't wise - least not enough.. not often enough.. We're still adolescents and playing with fire and peddling archaic ignorance along with neutron-enhanced transistorized whatevers. You will never obtain 'proof' that God exists -- as limned-out by the organized er 'scriptures'. It just doesn't work that way. (Trust me on this or don't) 'Proof' is a construct/idea applicable to (only certain hghly circumscribed parts of) mathematical theory. Really (!) Gripes directed at you seem to be not about, "Is there God?", but a certain style, familiar to many - whereby it is tacitly presumed that key Christian concepts: are obviously True\ufffd, and it may be assumed that any 'person' must share these (like Satan et al). It is not re your (form of) 'belief' whatsoever. IMhO. (If you really don't know "what it is that is profoundly annoying, in the oft-presentations of Christians" (??) drop me a line. me with a b on the end jps dot net.) As to whether there "is someThing er Higher" than what appears in daily visual displays of earth, fire & water [?] Welcome to the club. To put it as delicately as I can.. fucking-A right! there's a lot more 'going on' than our dulled perceptions ever stop flitting around long enough to.. notice. (What I'm much clearer about - are the numerous 'things' It Ain't!) You may guess what numbers among that long list. Stick around - you aren't an idiot and CRC doesn't actually Know Fucking Everything (why there are things inside a Vincent Black Shadow he's never heard of - but I OTOH have the actual P/Ns!) Cheers, ashton
Post #11,685 by pwhysall 10/4/01 1:34:49 AM Reply	Nah, that's not it. I think there aren't gods. Hence, I lack belief in them. However, I don't state flat out that they don't exist. And I wouldn't worship them if they did exist. Yes, the Bible and Koran have some nice words. They also have some very nasty ones - all the stuff about killing babies and raping virgins, stoning women to death for adultery, killing homosexuals, killing babies again, etc etc. That's fightin' talk. You need a [link\|http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html\|link]. Not knowing the Koran nearly as well as I do the Bible, I cannot speak about it from person experience, so I won't. :-) Now, I don't think it's right to accept all the fluffy bits of the bible without taking on board the vicious bits, too - after all, this stuff is supposed to be the Werd Of Gawd, right? (If I was YOUR god, and the bible was MY holy book, and you lot starting only reading and obeying the bits you liked, then I'd be in ass-kickin' mode and I'd dust off the old smitin' stick and come down and teach you what being a god is really all about.) I know the moral objectivists have a habit of crawling out of the woodwork whenever an atheist dares to put his head above the parapet. Cleverer people than I have thunk long and hard about this, and there's a good [link\|http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/ethics.html\|essay] on the American Atheists [link\|http://www.atheists.org\|web site]. Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #11,861 by static 10/4/01 10:47:35 PM Reply	The Bible. Now, I don't think it's right to accept all the fluffy bits of the bible without taking on board the vicious bits, too - after all, this stuff is supposed to be the Werd Of Gawd, right? I guess that's fair enough. There's a lot of sorry and sordid human histroy recorded in it. I usually think that showing the failings of people like Jacob, Samson and King David in the Bible - and some of them were pretty horrific failings - help make it harder to literally worship them as godlings. Putting aside the Bible for the moment, what you do think about the historical evidence for Jesus? I'm curious. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #11,882 by brettj 10/5/01 2:57:35 AM Reply	Re: The violence in the OT That was something that bothered me too. It was explained to me but I can't remember the meaning of the parable. I didn't realize how angry God could get when people violated the 10 commandments handed down to Moses. Isn't there something in the New Testament that affected this condition? Any help here would be appreciated.
Post #11,564 by marlowe 10/3/01 5:02:25 PM Reply	The alleged pwhysall shifts his ground. This is what appeared under that name: "Firstly, he who asserts that something does exist has the burden of proof" But now, suddenly, it's: The burden of proof lies where it always does With the person making the assertion Say, didn't Bertie Russell once pull this trick after he flipflopped on nuclear warfare? Pretended he'd always been against it? [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #11,565 by pwhysall 10/3/01 5:05:11 PM Reply	What ARE you talking about? Remember, I'm not asserting anything. If you want to play silly semantic games with the difference between these two sentences: "He who asserts that something does exist has the burden of proof" and "He who asserts has the burden of proof" then feel free. But as far as I'm concerned, you're talking to the hand. Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #11,584 by marlowe 10/3/01 6:19:07 PM Reply	You're asserting things all over the place. Oh, and by the way, "I'm not asserting anything" makes three assertions so far. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]

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