Post #114,706
8/21/03 8:23:43 AM
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Alabama chief justice loses fight over Commandments
MONTGOMERY, Ala.--Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore on Wednesday lost a last-minute appeal to the Supreme Court to save a Ten Commandments monument he installed in a judicial building, clearing the way for its removal.
The high court rejected Moore's emergency plea for a stay, declining to be drawn into a dispute over whether the 5,300-pound, granite monument violates the Constitution's ban on government promotion of religion.
After the court acted, Montgomery police handcuffed 21 Moore supporters who had kneeled and stood at the monument inside the building rotunda and refused to leave. They were taken to jail and charged with trespassing.
U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson had set a midnight Wednesday deadline for the monument's removal. He was not expected to take immediate action to remove the display, which remained in place early today.
[link|http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-judge21.html|link] I know that the US Constitution doesn't explicitly state a separation of church and state, but general public sentiment want it that way. lincoln
"If you're on your deathbed and you haven't got a story to tell, then you haven't lived. - Asa Baber"
[link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm|VB/SQL resume]
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Post #114,712
8/21/03 9:09:25 AM
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Disagree
I know that the US Constitution doesn't explicitly state a separation of church and state, but general public sentiment want it that way.
Only the vocal minority want it that way.
We have the freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.
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Post #114,713
8/21/03 9:11:00 AM
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Re: Disagree
The only way to ensure that is to scrupulously avoid involving govt in religion, and the reverse.
-drl
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Post #114,714
8/21/03 9:17:57 AM
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Agree, but...
The implication here is that if I work in a government building, I must surrender my right to worship/free speech. Since it's a government building, I cannot display any religious artifacts in my cube/office/desk. By same implication, I cannot have/read my bible at my desk during a break, because that would imply government sponsored religion.
Government cannot tell me who/what to worship, cannot force me to pray, cannot decide that the "Holy Order of the Shrub" is the one true way. The government should not be telling me NOT to pray/worship either.
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Post #114,719
8/21/03 10:14:49 AM
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Re: Agree, but...
Who is saying that?
The 10C display in 'Bama is another thing - it has to go.
-drl
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Post #114,749
8/21/03 12:25:59 PM
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Data Point
My sister, economist for the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Department of Labor, was put on unpaid administrative leave for three days a few years ago for having a bible on her desk. Her story is that she had it in her laptop bag and had taken it out in order to get her laptop out, and then neglected to return it to the bag.
Otherwise, she has a spotless record of service.
-----
Steve
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Post #114,753
8/21/03 12:30:25 PM
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She should sue then
..because it is just that kind of issue the 1st addresses.
The govt has gone to a place worse than hell in the last 50 yrs.
-drl
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Post #114,755
8/21/03 12:32:29 PM
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agreed.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #114,846
8/21/03 10:29:25 PM
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Highschool orientation
today with my son.
Rulebook says no tshirts with Satantic messages.
I explained to Ben that in this society we claim to have freedom of religion, but it is OK to persecute the Satanists. And no, I don't know why.
Also,it is ok to hate the French.
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Post #114,973
8/22/03 4:37:15 PM
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Work is for work
Do work there.
Home is for everything else. Do that there.
Simple.
Besides, you're on my dime. Private companies are a different ballgame. (Well, technically you're not really on my dime since I'm up here in Hoser country but you get my point...)
---
We've seen the results of when Church and State get mixed. It's all bad.
People who don't understand the hypocrisy of protesting abortion yet condoning the killing of abortion doctors should have no place governing me nor passing laws.
I've seen some of the video of the clowns out protesting the removal of the ten commandents statue. I just shake my head hearing and seeing some of those people.
lister
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Post #115,604
8/27/03 7:04:18 PM
8/27/03 7:06:33 PM
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Yeah, we actually do have freedom FROM religion.
From another, later post of yours in this thread: Government cannot tell me who/what to worship, cannot force me to pray, cannot decide that the "Holy Order of the Shrub" is the one true way. Sounds like freedom from religion to me.... [Edit: Added the body you see above] jb4
Boy I'd like to see those words on a PR banner behind [Treasury Secretary John] Snow at the podium:
Jobs and Growth: Just Wait.
John J. Andrew, unemployed programmer; see jobforjohn.com
Edited by jb4
Aug. 27, 2003, 07:06:33 PM EDT
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Post #115,672
8/28/03 11:21:07 AM
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Point missed
Freedom FROM religion means IMHO that government is doing everything to PREVENT religion. IOW denying the existance of religion.
Catholic (or any religious org) boy's club cannot meet in public school, but NeoNaziKlan can meet.
WRT the rock in the courthouse. If, IIRC, he refused to allow other expressions, then I agree with the Fed. Allow one, allow all. But if the decision was based upon "religious separation", then it's wrong because denying it is implicitly condoning "non-religion" which is against the constitiution...
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Post #115,678
8/28/03 11:51:18 AM
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So the government should favor the most wealthy religion?
The one that can afford to place monuments anywhere it pleases?
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #115,680
8/28/03 12:04:12 PM
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Could you please separate
"afford to place monuments" from "anywhere it pleases"?
The question of "afford" is not discussed in this thread. It's similar to "tax relief for the poor". How do you exercise your freedom when you're broken is a good question indeed.
--
Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.
--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
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Post #115,715
8/28/03 4:15:46 PM
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Re: Point missed - Yours, I think -
But if the decision was based upon "religious separation", then it's wrong because denying it is implicitly condoning "non-religion" which is against the constitution... Please explain how it might be that, anyone's 'denying' [say, that ANY Religious-Organization/Symbol IN FACT actually 'represents' 'God' - or 'anti-God] -- is in any way "explained", condoned or prohibited by: the US Constitution, implicitly or specifically] ie. I don't see where anyone's claim of Speaking-for-God has any more validity than anyone's claim that: NO-ONE HERE "Speaks for God" and I sure as Hell don't see any illumination on the topic from any words yet read in (or into) that entire document + Bill of Rights. When in Doubt: [if you 'Are' the Government] DON'T !!..just one more of the problems of living in a digital Yes/No Right/Wrong mindset and wallowing in the fallout from that mindset. ..Maybe Both are True! there's a *God for every Believer [who Wants One hard enough] and a God-free space for [those who Want-not all.. the observable homo-sap Consequences of Door #1] :-\ufffd
cf. Small Gods T. Pratchett, for further illumination over daily obscurity and mouth-flapping.
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Post #115,575
8/27/03 3:53:02 PM
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egads
[link|http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/local/6628817.htm|Resident calls panther statue 'pagan'] As protesters continued to roar in Alabama over the court-ordered removal of a religious monument, a lone woman stood before Tarrant County commissioners on Tuesday, saying that the bronze statue of a panther represents "paganism" and should be removed from government grounds. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #115,577
8/27/03 3:56:23 PM
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Re: egads
The Ten Commandments Monument was removed today, it was on my local news.
Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"
Comment by Nightowl
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Post #115,605
8/27/03 7:08:30 PM
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They DO come out of the woodwork in the darkness...
..don't they....
jb4
Boy I'd like to see those words on a PR banner behind [Treasury Secretary John] Snow at the podium:
Jobs and Growth: Just Wait.
John J. Andrew, unemployed programmer; see jobforjohn.com
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Post #115,617
8/27/03 8:41:50 PM
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Most state seals are paganistic in nature
The great seal of the state of texas is a religous symbol, full of rituals and they are wizarding the bills when the governor signs them, then affixes the seal. Its a religous blessing, no other definition.
thank you,
Bill
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #115,842
8/29/03 1:37:57 PM
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And then, there's New Mexico's symbol:
The Zia symbol
[image|http://209.15.31.226/images/nm/flag.gif||||]
[link|http://www.statehousegirls.net/nm/symbols/flag/|This link] explains the derivation, and how it became the state's official symbol.
Quite pagan, if you ask me
;-)
jb4
Boy I'd like to see those words on a PR banner behind [Treasury Secretary John] Snow at the podium:
Jobs and Growth: Just Wait.
John J. Andrew, unemployed programmer; see jobforjohn.com
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Post #115,673
8/28/03 11:24:35 AM
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So then would be the
Minnesota Gopher
Wisconson Badger
Kansas Jayhawk
Miami Dolphin
Arizona Razorback
etc etc etc
oh, and we must definitely add the one item worshipped my more people that anything else... $ $ $
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