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New U.S. programmers forced to train foreign replacements

Scott Kirwin clung to his job at a large investment bank through several rounds of layoffs last year. Friends marveled at the computer programmer's ability to dodge pink slips during the worst technology downturn in a decade.

But it was tough for Kirwin, 36, to relish his final assignment: training a group of programmers from India who would replace him within a year.

"They called it `knowledge acquisition,'" the Wilmington, Del., resident said. "We got paid our normal salaries to train people to do our jobs. The market was so bad we couldn't really do anything about it, so we taught our replacements."

Finally laid off in April, Kirwin sent out 225 resumes before landing a temporary position without benefits at a smaller bank -- and swallowing a 20 percent pay cut.

Kirwin is among what appears to be a growing number of American technology workers training their foreign replacements -- a humiliating assignment many say they assume unwittingly or reluctantly, simply to stay on the job longer or secure a meager severance package.

Their plight can be seen as an unintended consequence of the nation's non-immigrant visa program -- particularly the L-1 classification. The L-1 allows companies to transfer workers from overseas offices to the United States for up to seven years -- ostensibly to familiarize them with corporate culture or to import workers with "specialized knowledge."

It also lets companies continue paying workers their home country wage. Indian workers receive roughly one-sixth the hourly wage of the average American programmer, who makes about $60 per hour in wages and benefits.

Large technology companies say the L-1 helps them staff offices in less-developed companies with workers who understand the needs of a global corporation. And some labor experts say out-of-work programmers should stop complaining, and focus on their own re-training, just like the Rust Belt assembly line workers whose factory jobs migrated to Mexico and Asia in the 1980s.

But unemployed tech workers contend that so many good jobs are going to places like Bombay, Bangalore and Beijing that honing their technical skills is futile. According to the research firm Gartner Inc., one out of 10 technology jobs in the United States will move overseas by the end of next year.

"Once I figured out what was going on, I was disgusted," said Kevin Sherman, a 47-year-old programmer and technical author from Worthington, Ohio, who was working for Manifest Corp., an information systems consulting firm in Upper Arlington, Ohio.

Sherman held onto his $62,000-per-year contract job while he taught several dozen Indian workers how to build and maintain computer databases in 1999 and 2000. He quit rather than take on his next assignment: fixing the newly trained foreigners' broken PCs. He's been unemployed for two years.

Nancy Matijasich, Manifest president and CEO, said she no longer employs L-1 workers like those Sherman trained, because the Y2K threat has passed and the company has less need for programmers.

"There was a shortage of skills in the '90s," Matijasich said. "But we haven't processed visas in a long time."

The State Department issued 28,098 L-1 visas from October to March, the first half of fiscal 2003. That's an increase of nearly 7 percent from the same period in 2002.

But the number of L-1 workers in the United States is likely much higher, said Charlie Oppenheim, the State Department's chief of immigrant visa control. Each L-1 lets a worker enter the United States multiple times over several years.

There is no limit on the number of L-1 workers companies may import each year. Legislation introduced last month by Rep. Rosa DeLauro, D-Conn., seeks an annual limit of 35,000 L-1 workers nationwide.

By contrast, tight controls govern the H-1B visa, which requires companies to pay workers the prevailing American wage. The H-1B cap is scheduled to be reduced from 195,000 workers to 65,000 per year on Oct. 1.

Tech bellwethers including IBM, Hewlett-Packard, Cisco Systems, Oracle and Microsoft use L-1 workers but won't disclose how many they import. Many bring in workers through consulting firms, usually Indian companies such as Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys Technologies and Wipro Technologies.

Intel spokeswoman Gail Dundas acknowledged that the world's largest chipmaker relies on Americans to train L-1 workers who staff the company's offices in Russia, India, China and other high-growth markets. But she says the Intel training program does not result in American layoffs.

"If someone does something really well, we want the person who's going to perform a similar function abroad to learn from the master. Then the person in the United States will continue to do their job just as before," Dundas said.

Intel provides L-1 workers a cost-of-living adjustment if they work at the Santa Clara headquarters or elsewhere in the United States. Intel pays for housing, cars, return trips to the workers' home countries and full medical benefits -- a package that ends up costing significantly more than hiring an American, she said.

Dallas-based Texas Instruments also imports L-1 electrical engineers. With U.S. colleges graduating fewer U.S.-born engineers and the population of foreign-born science graduates mushrooming, TI has to look overseas for talent, spokesman Dan Larson said.

"You have a declining pool from which to draw, and more of those people are foreign nationals," Larson said. "If you're a company looking to hire electrical engineers, you're obliged to hire the best and brightest from wherever."

Sunil Mehta, vice president of NASSCOM, a New Delhi-based trade association for Indian software companies, claims the L-1 program has created about 1.5 million jobs in the United States since it began in 1970.

Still, NASSCOM and a U.S. counterpart, the Information Technology Association of America, acknowledge that some companies exploit loopholes. ITAA published guidelines for members on July 29, suggesting that companies pay the prevailing U.S. wage and import only those foreigners who have skills lacking in America.

"Similar visas exist in 20 to 25 other countries, including India," Mehta said. "I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bath water because of a few loopholes."

Michael Emmons says he's already become an L-1 casualty. The 41-year-old software developer moved from California to Florida in 2001 after Siemens, his contract employer, merged with another company. He was supposed to help migrate disparate software into a single system, but he and a dozen co-workers ended up training Indian replacements to connect systems using IBM software.

Emmons, who quit the Siemens job after being told his position would be terminated, is now lobbying politicians to abolish the L-1. He's also considering a career in politics -- running on an "American Workers First" campaign.

"I'm not saying offshoring can be stopped, but it does not have to be like this," he said.


[link|http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/tech/2041276|source]

lincoln
"If you're on your deathbed and you haven't got a story to tell, then you haven't lived. - Asa Baber"
[link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm|VB/SQL resume]
[link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/tandem_resume.htm|Tandem resume]
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
New Capitalism and global markets. Gotta love 'em!
I find it oddly amusing (in a macabre kind of way) now that the "third world" is busy doing to the USA what the USA spent 1945-1995 doing...


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
New Rilly know how to twit a sanctimonious Empire, dontcha! :-0
New Yep, I know a guy who did just that here in Charlotte.
He was a long term contractor for Bank of America and the last assignment there was to train guys from India to do his job. It took him a while to get another job with, as it turns out, another bank.
Alex

"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
New Re: U.S. programmers forced to train foreign replacements
Yep, they are doing some of that with John's company. They relocated a lot of the jobs to Brazil.

Fortunately, so far, John has survived all the layoffs, but he also wrote a particular program that basically he knows the most about. He says that doesn't mean his job is safe, but it does tend to make him important, as they tend to need him for certain things, and only he will do.

I just keep crossing my fingers and praying every day that he is one of the few who remains here and doesn't get laid off.

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New the power of prayer
"Please, Lord, have them lay off someone else--someone less devout than we are--an atheist would be fine--and you can go ahead and smite their double-wide while you're at it. In Jesus' name, amen."
New Re: the power of prayer
No, actually I pray for them not to lay anyone off at all. And so far, they've pushed back the next layoff date for three months...

Knock on wood.

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New Is it time for Mark Twain's 'War Prayer' yet?
It's [link|http://www.lone-star.net/mall/literature/warpray.htm| here].

Irony isn't dead.. Oh No! it has transcended to that aerie of er physically Feeling those Metaphysical Brick-Bats" so randomly swung -for so long- on the poorest, the bedraggled,the huddled-masses that made good fertilizer in the abattoirs of the United Fruits and related legions of CIEIOs.. Big Men as grace the Naked Stachoos of US-style Liberty-fer-All, well OK - a few.. but WE'LL PICK 'EM
cha cha and cha.

Dyslexic Luddites of the World Untie!

You have *nothing* [still..]
to lose but: your Burger-Malls and Cloaca Cola franchises in a million fly-infested backwaters which 'we' have helped perpetuate: for the fodder farm.

(And now we're exporting Jesus - the Goodiness-Logo\ufffd - to assist in the proper Basic reeducation of the Other Billions; them heathenous hordes):

Who Shall Thank US! next ... Oh, in so Many..
Oh Yessss

Interesting NEW WAYS -
on the evening newsfotainment, showin our Perpertual-Occupation Troops winnin Hearts & Minds (via every RPG dodged, each day-at-a-time)
(while they train-up their remote US-Corporate Outsourcees for *Your Job*)

Hmmm.. maybe they can replace Our Occupiers?
Can you 'Occupy' your Own Country - by proxy?
Do I see a new recursive Corp Bizness Opportunity Here, for Halliburton or maybe Kraft or Merck - or Disney (side deal: sell 'em Goofy suits)?

I.Love.It.


Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle..
New trouble at the double-wide constellation
it's a good [link|http://www.bigidea.com/videos/penguins/pn005/default.htm| story]

And check out the [link|http://www.bigideafun.com/penguins/arcade/doom_funnel/info.htm|astro-physics lessons]
Have fun,
Carl Forde
New You Evulll
Dastardly physics-dangling... before! the crew can lash one to the mast away from keyboard.. {{Ugly}}

(Add a mode to show the equations and the values "you set" - after each shot, etc. - seems it oughtta teach the tykes Something?)

:-\ufffd

New Time sink from heck
===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
New Both of you wrong
(and I know Rand is just being a liberal asshole)

(and Owl is being blind)

Show me how to adjust myself to this situation - what next? What about my fellows? How do I handle this?

And the answers come.

Prayer is adjustment. The rest is synchronicity.
-drl
New The way I see it (new thread)
Created as new thread #113653 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=113653|The way I see it]
New prayers answered and otherwise
Oh, I don't doubt the utility of prayer and related focus routines, but the gentle Owl described hers rather specifically, I thought--"I just keep . . . praying every day that [spouse] is one of the few who remains here and doesn't get laid off"--clearly expressing the wish that should the pink slips fall they land on someone else. I freely cop to adding an arch imputation that the layoffs might be desired distributed in descending order of piety, as well as to inserting a perfectly gratuitous reference to manufactured housing.

Not entirely gratuitous, actually: I had been put in mind of a bit of news footage from Tornado Alley some years back: twister has its way with, yes, a buncha mobile homes, strewing kindling and cadavers untidily in its wake. Survivor, a generously-proportioned woman no longer in the first blush of youth, with a rich, not to say near-impenetrable regional accent, loudly proclaims that her dwelling was spared owing to the infinite mercy of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who stretched out His hand, et cetera, et cetera, leading me to wonder--was she the only person praying in the trailer park? She and the other survivors, perhaps? Would it not be reasonable, said I to myself, to suppose that several of the dead also prayed really hard not to be summoned home to meet OL & SJC that afternoon?

Prayer as a technique of spiritual centering: sure. Prayer as a means of summoning forth the strength to cope with adversity? Nichto problemo. Prayer to win the lottery, or keep the job--in view of the millions upon millions of prayers offered up from desperate supplicants in situations of unimaginable pain, degradation and terror this past bloody century alone--well, it's hard to see. Were I believer I might find it difficult to imagine my petition for job security being granted with so many pleas for deliverance from direr dangers having been so peremptorily denied: at the very least I might begin to wonder if the Management wasn't being, well, just a tad capricious. But maybe this is just a liberal asshole kinda thing...

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Re: prayers answered and otherwise
Oh, I don't doubt the utility of prayer and related focus routines, but the gentle Owl described hers rather specifically, I thought--"I just keep . . . praying every day that [spouse] is one of the few who remains here and doesn't get laid off"--clearly expressing the wish that should the pink slips fall they land on someone else.


Well, that isn't what I meant exactly. I said I keep praying for him not to be laid off, but basically, I pray for the company not to lay people off. Thus, I'm praying for all of those in the company.

I pray for many other things, daily, including all those who need jobs to find them, among others.

And he is preparing in case he is laid off, so either way hopefully we'll be ok.

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
Expand Edited by Nightowl Aug. 13, 2003, 12:05:08 AM EDT
Expand Edited by Nightowl Aug. 13, 2003, 12:08:04 AM EDT
New You mean sorta like, "Oh Lord won't you buy me
..a [link|http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/janisjoplin/mercedesbenz.html| Mercedes Benz]?"

Oh Lord:
..let Our Troops remain uninjured.
..let Their Troops be ground-up into hamburger, better yet - maimed (more medical resources)

Show Them Your *Might*
Prove Their God Sucks!
Keep It All Going The Same Way As Always.

Thanks, er



Amen
Awomen

(Or did you mean..
umm never mind.)
New Re: You mean sorta like, "Oh Lord won't you buy me
Nope. Hehee.

I pray for (in order), my family and specific friends, some specific people who need to be healed or cured as well as all others, some specific people who are depressed and sad, or need jobs or all others, my church and their leaders, and the search for a permanent preacher, the country and it's leaders, and ask to protect all on foreign lands, both US and foreign alike... and help the leaders and soldiers to all make the best decisions. (Then it gets more personal, but I won't go into that part.)

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New Re: prayers answered and otherwise

See [link|http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/warprayer.html|The War Prayer].

--\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
   Keep software free.     Oppose the CBDTPA.     Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
New Brazil?
They relocated a lot of the jobs to Brazil.


Sounds great - can I go with my job?

Anyhow, I don't get that one at all. I've been to Brazil - Sao Paulo and Rio are both more expensive than (much of) the US in terms of cost of living.

Color me confused.



Smalltalk is dangerous. It is a drug. My advice to you would be don't try it; it could ruin your life. Once you take the time to learn it (to REALLY learn it) you will see that there is nothing out there (yet) to touch it. Of course, like all drugs, how dangerous it is depends on your character. It may be that once you've got to this stage you'll find it difficult (if not impossible) to "go back" to other languages and, if you are forced to, you might become an embittered character constantly muttering ascerbic comments under your breath. Who knows, you may even have to quit the software industry altogether because nothing else lives up to your new expectations.
--AndyBower
New Re: Brazil?
They relocated a lot of the jobs to Brazil.


Sounds great - can I go with my job?


Anyhow, I don't get that one at all. I've been to Brazil - Sao Paulo and Rio are both more expensive than (much of) the US in terms of cost of living.


Color me confused.


I'll ask him about it when he gets home tonight. Maybe he knows why they picked Brazil. :) I have no clue. ;)

Nightowl >8#



"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New Re: Brazil?
I asked him. :)

He said they picked Brazil because programmers are cheaper to pay and because they have a relatively good time-zone difference.

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New I could get him a better deal in Costa Rica or Panama
seriously. And the flight is half as long. The timezone is better too (Brazil is 6 TZ's from California) - CR and Panama are same as New York.



Smalltalk is dangerous. It is a drug. My advice to you would be don't try it; it could ruin your life. Once you take the time to learn it (to REALLY learn it) you will see that there is nothing out there (yet) to touch it. Of course, like all drugs, how dangerous it is depends on your character. It may be that once you've got to this stage you'll find it difficult (if not impossible) to "go back" to other languages and, if you are forced to, you might become an embittered character constantly muttering ascerbic comments under your breath. Who knows, you may even have to quit the software industry altogether because nothing else lives up to your new expectations.
--AndyBower
New Re: I could get him a better deal in Costa Rica or Panama
seriously. And the flight is half as long. The timezone is better too (Brazil is 6 TZ's from California) - CR and Panama are same as New York.


He asked if they speak english! LOL!

Seriously, he isn't going to Brazil, or anywhere else, we hope. He just writes up the requirements they have to follow there and reviews their work. :)

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New Wait wait, hold on there....
I thought the reason why they are using H1B and L1 Visas was because the Native Citizens where not skilled enough to do the jobs and they needed talent from other countries to come in here? This isn't true if one of us has to train the Visa holders.
New {Shhhhh!..}____ Good one, Orion - sorta ;-)
..but I believe the Original Scam was based upon the Massively transparent-Lie that "there weren't Enough skilled US workers to meet!" that W2K Problem (and symptom of massive prior Head-Up-Ass thinking all over).



See? nothin about them 'bein smarter' and all. Just More of 'Em. Clear?






'Course! what they Meant was: there were't enough US types - as would work for $6/hr. So what? if Everybody Knew This Was a Massive Corp Lie: this is Murica. And it Still Is.

And it is going to be Changing.
Guess. How. [??]
Is there some lesson here? Say, "never invest 12 years of intense suffering to learn jillions of arcane things - as shall become a commodity", fershure?
New You mean Y2K problem?
W2K is a problem, but a problem of a different sort than Y2K.

We already knew that Corp Management was a bunch of lying, backstabbing weasles, this just proves it. Train your own replacments, get terminated 6 months later as 12 guys from another country work for $6/hr doing your job. Stand in the unemployment line with your 11 other ex-coworkers.
New For the terminallyLiteral: ""Y"" [W2K is a Timeless Problem]
     U.S. programmers forced to train foreign replacements - (lincoln) - (26)
         Capitalism and global markets. Gotta love 'em! - (pwhysall) - (1)
             Rilly know how to twit a sanctimonious Empire, dontcha! :-0 -NT - (Ashton)
         Yep, I know a guy who did just that here in Charlotte. - (a6l6e6x)
         Re: U.S. programmers forced to train foreign replacements - (Nightowl) - (18)
             the power of prayer - (rcareaga) - (12)
                 Re: the power of prayer - (Nightowl)
                 Is it time for Mark Twain's 'War Prayer' yet? - (Ashton)
                 trouble at the double-wide constellation - (cforde) - (2)
                     You Evulll - (Ashton)
                     Time sink from heck -NT - (drewk)
                 Both of you wrong - (deSitter) - (6)
                     The way I see it (new thread) - (orion)
                     prayers answered and otherwise - (rcareaga) - (4)
                         Re: prayers answered and otherwise - (Nightowl)
                         You mean sorta like, "Oh Lord won't you buy me - (Ashton) - (1)
                             Re: You mean sorta like, "Oh Lord won't you buy me - (Nightowl)
                         Re: prayers answered and otherwise - (kmself)
             Brazil? - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                 Re: Brazil? - (Nightowl) - (3)
                     Re: Brazil? - (Nightowl) - (2)
                         I could get him a better deal in Costa Rica or Panama - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                             Re: I could get him a better deal in Costa Rica or Panama - (Nightowl)
         Wait wait, hold on there.... - (orion) - (3)
             {Shhhhh!..}____ Good one, Orion - sorta ;-) - (Ashton) - (2)
                 You mean Y2K problem? - (orion) - (1)
                     For the terminallyLiteral: ""Y"" [W2K is a Timeless Problem] -NT - (Ashton)

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