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New Ode to a Nightingale.. ^h^h er Night-raptor
So then, Nightowl - and on reflection:

It occurs to me that you have put up a Sterling defense against the slings & arrows of those who deem "vast social knowledge" to be some sort of necessary er "talent". And your honesty about your omissions - is indeed commendable, after the shock wears off.

But there is a flip-side (to being flip)pant - you may well be *Right*er: on the highest scale imaginable - that of, not cluttering-up mind with pointless traditional dances of the massively pecking-order kind! (Escaping all manifestations of Politics alone.. would relieve the mind of the tiresome burden of thousands of patently useless opinions, stored asif they meant something).

Well, ya gots moxie - and ya ain't 'stupid' either, but you do have a couple decades of catching up to do, IF.. what you want IS - to play with the general population -?-

Unless!! you are among that rarefied elite [??] as really Can:

Just ignore the whole suppurating Mess of modern spin-doctored mass kultur!
(that is a sarcastic spelling of 'culture', and hardly original with me).

Now IF.. you Can really tune out all the BS around you -?- why then:

People have been granted Sainthood! (in various Corporate Theocracies) for not. even. coming. close-to. kicking the ego-habit: take the misogynist "St. Paul", for a clear example.
(That means - "woman-hater" (but much more likely "woman-fearer"; the hatred naturally follows the fear)).
You might read carefully the pure-shyte he passes off "as-if from *Gawd*" and all. It's screwed up millions of Believers, like the Puritans.. for centuries! - about sex and all. That'll give you an idea of the actual minimal standards for Sainthood. OK?

So maybe.. you can make a giant leap past most folks around: and just continue to ignore all that early-conditioning you have miraculously managed to miss! This may be no 'affliction' at all! ie Make Lemonade.

(And no, I'm not being even a teensy-bit snide in this suggestion; IF.. you can indeed Bring It Off. << Gawd Knows this kultur *needs* a few contemporary icons, oases of Sanity and Disinvolvement.. within an ocean of unrelenting noise and Elimidate concentrated commercial nastiness.)
And you seem well suited in attempting to achieve a certain sort of 'harmoniousness?' amidst your flock elsewhere. Surely that is a clue as to your destiny?


Go For It.. and I shall light incense at the altar certain to be erected.. in time.

(of course too, we both realize that one Cannot "set out for Sainthood", pass the GREs and become a Professional Purveyor of Wisdom\ufffd / at prevailing Professional Fee Scales. Like 'honesty' it is an imprimatur only to be bestowed by Others. So let's not take this Too literally, OK? ;-)


Ashton, somewhat enviously..
(whose mentation could be improved 10000% if he could erase a mere 90% of the false-'knowledge' which the brain's crappy Microsoft-grade Fast-Moron-Memory refuses to delete)
New Re: Ode to a Nightingale.. ^h^h er Night-raptor
Let me work on figuring out that post...

Are you asking me if I want to be a Saint? No, I do not. IF that is what you are asking, all I want to be is the best human being I can, not a holier-than-thou one, saintly one, or otherwise unachievable goal. :)

I'll get back to ya on the reply.

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" (Don't let the bastards grind you down)

Comment by Nightowl
New Re: Ode to a Nightingale.. ^h^h er Night-raptor
An interesting notion, Ashton, that the gentle Nightowl could be our own Holy Fool (Note to those who've forgotten their Dostoevsky--"holy fool" is not to be understood as a term of disparagement). I will strive to keep this possibility ever in mind against the off chance that this should someday come to be universally acknowledged (who would wish, after all, to be remembered as the schoolyard bully who used to thrash the young Gandhi for lunch money back at HotWheels of Karma Middle School?), and nevermore be beastly to the Bird.

raptor-ously,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Re: Ode to a Nightingale.. ^h^h er Night-raptor
An interesting notion, Ashton, that the gentle Nightowl could be our own Holy Fool (Note to those who've forgotten their Dostoevsky--"holy fool" is not to be understood as a term of disparagement). I will strive to keep this possibility ever in mind against the off chance that this should someday come to be universally acknowledged (who would wish, after all, to be remembered as the schoolyard bully who used to thrash the young Gandhi for lunch money back at HotWheels of Karma Middle School?), and nevermore be beastly to the Bird.


raptor-ously,


Uhhh, thanks, Rcareaga, I think... hehee... and I have not taken all your comments to be completely negative, for the record, you have been very educational at times as well. :)

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" (Don't let the bastards grind you down)

Comment by Nightowl
New Ah.. you sly dog, you
Tryin'a get a little insurance against maybe sometime encountering a Quisitor of the likes of Vorbis eh?

(Yup, in midstream of Small Gods. Terry's Got permanently whatever poor old Geo Carlin may have fumbled away as the neurons became Ronnieated :(

Alas though.. I fear that Our Raptorette just may lack sufficient TrueBeliever genes to manage to create her own catechism - makes too much sense about her own priorities.. to morph easily into Iconhood. :(

Oh well; maybe a 24-hr. drip of Owsley into the veins of a placebo like, say Wlliam Kristol? could just slightly-transform his Certainties ---> Beneficence Towards All Living Things (Remember what they say about those who got a 0 on the Religious Orientation test: ripe for Conversion!)

Gotta settle for Pygmalion..


Ashton,
there's a World of difference between mold and mould..
(Not to mention moult and mulch)
New Re: Ode to a Nightingale.. ^h^h er Night-raptor
It occurs to me that you have put up a Sterling defense against the slings & arrows of those who deem "vast social knowledge" to be some sort of necessary er "talent". And your honesty about your omissions - is indeed commendable, after the shock wears off.


I wonder if maybe it isn't the definition of "vast social knowledge" that is the key here? After all, what is "vast social knowledge?" Social is society, isn't it, or the concept of socializing (i.e. familiarizing people with how society is), to be more exact. I know a lot about society, just not government in general.

Perhaps one should also look at how it is placed in one's life? If someone for example, works for the government, (as I did once, I was a federal employee), then that someone perhaps should have some concept of the institution one is working for. In my case, I did have that concept... and it didn't impress me. Thus when I was given the chance to cease to be a federal employee, I took it gratefully.

But if someone is not high on the social ladder, (i.e. well known or famous), and is not exposed to many situations requiring that "vast social knowledge", which from the past posts, I conclude also includes politics, they have less need to know the finer points of government, politics and the like.

Interesting that you used the word "talent" to describe having that "vast social knowledge", because I always viewed a talent to be something you were inborn with, rather than something you learned, although not denying that you can indeed learn a talent. I would consider it more of an ability to have and express that "vast social knowledge" than a talent, but I digress.

Since the word talent is used, perhaps it is simply then that some people learn that "talent" far better than others? To learn a talent, one must enjoy it, to start with, one must have interest. Otherwise, trying to teach your child to play the violin, will only result in squealing sounds that disturb the neighbors.

Maybe I was turned off by politics, maybe I was simply not interested, or more likely, maybe I was simply more interested in something else, but I tended to learn the history of our forefathers taught in grade school/high school long enough to pass the necessary classes and get on to the ones I wanted to take.

So, to consider having that vast information a necessity, well, it's a little broad. I suppose to a degree it would be, but to another, it would be well, more than one needed. And who defines vast, anyway? To me, the word vast describes something like the Grand Canyon, or an endless chasm disappearing into darkness.

I have the basic tools of democracy, and minimal politics. I don't remember all these details by memory, most of the time I must be reminded, probably because other things I deem far more important reside in my memory. But when I need the knowledge, (i.e. to vote, or do some other political thing), I can access it.

As for putting up a sterling defense, well, I feel I hold my own against those that I have no emotional attachment to. This only because you all do not know the places to hit me where it will scare, weaken or hurt. Not yet. Believe me, I fail more in those arenas where I actually know personally and care personally (nothing bad intended here), for those people. I like all of you, and I like this board, or I wouldn't be here, but none of you have the knowledge and keys to get inside me and damage anything as of yet... except maybe for Orion. Not unless you accidentally stumble on one of my weak points.

But there is a flip-side (to being flip)pant - you may well be *Right*er: on the highest scale imaginable - that of, not cluttering-up mind with pointless traditional dances of the massively pecking-order kind! (Escaping all manifestations of Politics alone.. would relieve the mind of the tiresome burden of thousands of patently useless opinions, stored asif they meant something).


Hehee, well I can't escape all politics, because as you said so yourself, (and I responded to in Open Forum and then manually moved it to Politics, politics are everywhere. I agree wholeheartedly with you, I said many things in that post that prove that we can't escape politics. And you are right about relieving the mind of patently useless opinions, because although I respect all opinions and everyone's right to theirs, I can't see the need to maintain a running memory log of who has what opinion at every turn. :)

Well, ya gots moxie - and ya ain't 'stupid' either, but you do have a couple decades of catching up to do, IF.. what you want IS - to play with the general population -?-


Thanks, I'll take that as a compliment. Honestly though, I'm not sure if I want to play with them so much as coexist amongst them. :)

Unless!! you are among that rarefied elite [??] as really Can:


Just ignore the whole suppurating Mess of modern spin-doctored mass kultur!


Well, I think there is a different between ignoring something and doing your best not to let it affect you in negative ways, but I see your point.

Now IF.. you Can really tune out all the BS around you -?- why then:


So maybe.. you can make a giant leap past most folks around: and just continue to ignore all that early-conditioning you have miraculously managed to miss! This may be no 'affliction' at all! ie Make Lemonade.


Are you in a sense here, saying, make lemons out of lemonade, i.e. gain something from my loss of information? I'm not really sure what early-conditioning you mean here, because I feel I was conditioned early about politics, anyway, since Dad more or less made me do what he wanted at the polls for years. But maybe it's a good sign that when I was free of that influence, I was able to step back and look at it myself, rather than go on in that conditioned response to be like Dad. Maybe that's what you mean, if that's the case, yes, I can ignore and move past that early influence and conditioning, and I have. :) I no longer vote a given way because dad said so, I vote based on how I feel and believe.

(And no, I'm not being even a teensy-bit snide in this suggestion; IF.. you can indeed Bring It Off. << Gawd Knows this kultur *needs* a few contemporary icons, oases of Sanity and Disinvolvement.. within an ocean of unrelenting noise and Elimidate concentrated commercial nastiness.)


I don't think you're being snide. In fact, I take this post as a compliment of sorts, albeit a wondering one. :) And you are right, disinvolvement, although hard, is necessary sometimes. If you don't have those Devil's advocates, or neutral parties at times, you can't see past your own emotionally charged feelings.

And you seem well suited in attempting to achieve a certain sort of 'harmoniousness?' amidst your flock elsewhere. Surely that is a clue as to your destiny?


I'm not sure what that means, unless you mean my yahoo groups, because I do strive to have a harmonious group of people who respect one another's opinions and coexist in a peaceable manner. Something that as you know, is very hard to accomplish and maintain in this new and embittered society.

Go For It.. and I shall light incense at the altar certain to be erected.. in time.


Don't worry, Ashton. I realize that you cannot "strive" for Sainthood. :) I didn't set out to "strive" for honesty either, just set out to live it and be it. :)

Ashton, somewhat enviously..


Enviously? Why would you want to be like me? I lived a sheltered life, I was naive to the point where I got into harmful situations more than once, and the only thing I can truly say I'm proud of is that I managed to get past it all to become who I am today.... maybe that's enough?

And Ashton, I want to add that you have become both intriguing and educational, and I am learning more from your posts than I ever thought possible. And YES, that IS a compliment. :)

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" (Don't let the bastards grind you down)

Comment by Nightowl
Expand Edited by Nightowl Aug. 1, 2003, 06:22:19 PM EDT
New Kind words noted and appreciated.
Your command of language is IMO (that's the Three Letter Acronym, er "TLA" for In My Opinion; IMhO - adds 'humble' - though usually that addition is in jest.. except for the Truly Self-Righteous, of course ;-)

It is certainly "more than adequate", evidencing that your hours spent in the halls of Academe were not wasted. All-in-all, an appreciation? Love for Language - I deem more admirable than most other qualities - as all possibilities for communication derive from That. Those perpetually sloppy with language and content to remain there - are not merely cuthless (uncouth, then) but will find that, at every turn: various doors will close to their aspirations.

Unfortunately, and an important corollary: it is Vital to become acquainted with the vagaries of political-lying "speech", not merely in self-defense - but for the benefit of all one's intimates.

To be unaware of being manipulated in a Pavlovian sense (look up Ivan Pavlov sometime, for a quick idea) by popular doggerel-phrases of the day: is to be forever a victim and never an actor in the great play of words and ideas -- which govern all the outer-Rulez of your habitation in these parts.

There is a book I've found both illuminating and fun re the mentioned 'vagaries' of politico-babble. Was actually written for children to read (with help from a handy young relative). Its basics, as came to be called semantics - were stolen by a Microsoft-kinda entrepreneur named S.I. Hayakawa. He essentially rephrased a few paragraphs and called it IIRC (if I remember correctly) "Language in Thought and Action". Then got himself elected to an academic sinecure.. (At SF State, actually)

Written by one Stuart Chase in ~1935, The Tyranny of Words. It saves lots of theoretical 'language' mumbo-jumbo as it is written in Plainest English. Available in most libraries - maybe even reprints by now (?) In that, Mr. Chase introduces the idea of substituting the word blab within every speech - for Those Words which, for being Universal Symbols - have become unuseable for communicating anything of what the wielder might imagine that another 'hears'.. Words, phrases like:

The Murican Peepul think ___, demand ___ ("American People" - as if.. there WERE some unified, homogenized THING which all or most "think"! On any subject imaginable!!)

also (partial list, natch)
Freedom! Liberty! Motherhood! Truth! Nation-under-God, God Is On Our Side
yada & yada

Left! Right! Commie Librul! 'Compassionate' Conservative! (forcing one to look up, say - what then is a 'Reactionary'? and also - how does the phrase liberal education square with the usage of 'liberal' as an epithet [nasty word] ??) And what does the word illiberal connote? Finally - what is the root of the word 'Radical'? [yes, this is indeed a pun - but a most Useful one to realize]

In brief - such doggerel is Everywhere; and then you get into.. not so much "religion" as say, religio-bigotry; the substitution of one's own opinions, or the hearsay of various Dead Scribes - attributing these evidently-human opinions to: The One God! (meaning Yours, natch - screw anyone Else's 'God' or alternate Cosmic View of it all).

And so it goes..
(You might substitute almost anything Kurt Vonnegut ever wrote: for that "Star Trek" book you mentioned was weighing down your reading list - a mere suggestion. We'll get to, Small Gods by Terry Pratchett - a little later.)

So then.. you see, you cannot actually escape the politics thing except by choosing naivete as a cop-out to all the hard work of de-babelizing such crap as FOX-'News' and, most every political speech ever uttered.


Sorry, but them's the breaks; homo-sap has been described as the lying animal.
[Don't Believe Anything I Say]



Ashton
New Re: Kind words noted and appreciated.
Your command of language ... It is certainly "more than adequate", evidencing that your hours spent in the halls of Academe were not wasted. All-in-all, an appreciation? Love for Language - I deem more admirable than most other qualities - as all possibilities for communication derive from That. Those perpetually sloppy with language and content to remain there - are not merely cuthless (uncouth, then) but will find that, at every turn: various doors will close to their aspirations.


Well, you are right there, I do have a love for language, communication, and writing. I wanted to be a writer once, but I have put that on the back burner at this time because... well, I'm not really sure, but I somewhere down the road decided not to pursue it.

To be unaware of being manipulated in a Pavlovian sense (look up Ivan Pavlov sometime, for a quick idea) by popular doggerel-phrases of the day: is to be forever a victim and never an actor in the great play of words and ideas -- which govern all the outer-Rulez of your habitation in these parts.


I know who Pavlov is, he is the guy who did the salivating dog/ringing bell experiment. I do do my best not to be blindly manipulated. :) Well, at least NOW I do.

There is a book I've found both illuminating and fun re the mentioned 'vagaries' of politico-babble. Was actually written for children to read (with help from a handy young relative). Its basics, as came to be called semantics - were stolen by a Microsoft-kinda entrepreneur named S.I. Hayakawa. He essentially rephrased a few paragraphs and called it IIRC (if I remember correctly) "Language in Thought and Action". Then got himself elected to an academic sinecure.. (At SF State, actually)


Written by one Stuart Chase in ~1935, The Tyranny of Words. It saves lots of theoretical 'language' mumbo-jumbo as it is written in Plainest English. Available in most libraries - maybe even reprints by now (?) In that, Mr. Chase introduces the idea of substituting the word blab within every speech - for Those Words which, for being Universal Symbols - have become unuseable for communicating anything of what the wielder might imagine that another 'hears'.. Words, phrases like:


I'm a little confused here, is the book called "Language in Thought and Action", or "The Tyranny Of Words?" I was gonna look up the simple one you mentioned, but I got a little confused because I couldn't tell which one was it. Are they two different books?

Left! Right! Commie Librul! 'Compassionate' Conservative! (forcing one to look up, say - what then is a 'Reactionary'? and also - how does the phrase liberal education square with the usage of 'liberal' as an epithet [nasty word] ??) And what does the word illiberal connote? Finally - what is the root of the word 'Radical'? [yes, this is indeed a pun - but a most Useful one to realize]


I remembered somewhere in one of the other posts, someone told me to look up liberal and illiberal, (Was that you?) I haven't hunted up that post yet, but I did it anyway. I consider a reactionary to be one who reacts, and the dictionary is close, it says a person who is inclined to react, or one who favors reaction such as in politics. But see, reaction is not a solely political word, and therein lies most of my confusion with political terms. When I think of liberal, I think first of liberally, as in giving much. In the political sense however, it means advocating progress or reform. (i.e. not strictly set in your beliefs, I would guess).

When I looked up illiberal though, instead of simply saying, against progress and reform, it says, narrow-minded or bigoted, which is much much stronger than against progress or reform. But essentially, I guess both mean the same, just one is stronger than the other. But then, the liberal education term, is the study of the liberal arts, i.e. art, science, natural science, social science and humanities. What does that have to do with being for progress and reform? Is art a form of progress? The deeper you go, the more twisted it seems to get.

(You might substitute almost anything Kurt Vonnegut ever wrote: for that "Star Trek" book you mentioned was weighing down your reading list - a mere suggestion. We'll get to, Small Gods by Terry Pratchett - a little later.)


Hehee, it was Star Wars, and it's the NJO Series. If I come up with one of the books you mentioned above, I'll read that at night instead of the SW book, because it's kinda creepy to read at night anyway.

As for Kurt Vonnegut, I've read Slaughterhouse Five, and I believe another one, but I can't remember much about them because it was some time ago in a Literary Class in college.

So then.. you see, you cannot actually escape the politics thing except by choosing naivete as a cop-out to all the hard work of de-babelizing such crap as FOX-'News' and, most every political speech ever uttered.


Sorry, but them's the breaks; homo-sap has been described as the lying animal.


Well, this homo-sapien does their best to defy the norm! ;)

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" (Don't let the bastards grind you down)

Comment by Nightowl
New On being confused by Ashton
At one time I was a tutor of the written word (got paid for it even). Even so, there are many times he confuses me. Parsing isn't just a skill, it's a necessity when it comes to Ashton.
-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?
New Re: On being confused by Ashton
At one time I was a tutor of the written word (got paid for it even). Even so, there are many times he confuses me. Parsing isn't just a skill, it's a necessity when it comes to Ashton.


Hehehe, thanks Silverlock, cause I usually have to take every sentence apart one word at a time, and look up a few to get the meaning. :)

And he wonders why owls don't have time to read! ;) (Just kidding!)

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" (Don't let the bastards grind you down)

Comment by Nightowl
New Others can correct me if I'm wrong
A couple of posting tips for you.

It is generally accepted here that you can (should?) put your own words (that reflect the sense of your following comments) in the subject line instead of relying on the automatic "Re:....." when you respond to a post. Think of it as a "title" for your post. You can, of course, use the subject line however you wish. I only mention this because the subject line of a post is, IMO, a usefull component of the post it prefaces.

Also; Quoting of a post in your message body is generally used when you wish to respond to (there are a few other reasons) specific points in a larger statement. In other words, If you want to respond to a specific statement, then quote only that statement.


(And a personal aside from me (Nobody else is allowed to read the following) When I suggested you use that "latin" phrase as an addition to your sig, the words in parenthesis were not meant be a part of your sig. Just a translation for your own knowledge. Keep it if you want. Just wanted to clarify.) Okay, the rest of you can open your eyes now).
-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?
New Re: Others can correct me if I'm wrong
I wondered about the subject line. Thanks. I didn't want to come in here and ask a million questions, so I've floundered around a lot, I admit. And even though people tell me to go use the "test" forum, I'm ashamed to admit, I don't know how to go about doing that. What do I do?

Regarding quoting, I didn't use to quote so much, but the intellectual level of the posts has jumped up sharply, so I've had to rely on the quotes to help me formulate the responses. LOL!

And about the signature, so noted. :)

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"
Comment by Nightowl
New On Features.
IIRC, we discovered that making better forum software involved giving end-users more options and preferences to control their experience. Unfortunately, optionitis normally serves a quite small minority of users; witness how many people never change the default colours in Windows... I personally don't like the format of the Yahoo Groups - it is definitely put in the shade by zIWETHEY - but I can envisage many people happy with it because they have no idea that it could be so much better. Of course, I can also envisage Yahoo actually wanting it less than the absolute best, but that's a topic for another message.

Now actually experimenting with all the knobs and switches provided usually involves the Testing forum, as you already know. But I know that for me, it also involves getting over a certain level of preciousness to actually post to a public place some nonsense for the purposes of trying things out. Heck, I have to do it all the time at work! :-) But then, the very first posts I made to become apart of the community and not just a forum poster were similarly daunting. So.

Wade, who's hoping he's not seagulling as per Peter's definition.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

New Re: On Features. (new thread)
Created as new thread #112507 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=112507|Re: On Features.]
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New Simple:___>>>Google<<<____ Tyranny of Words Chase
     Ode to a Nightingale.. ^h^h er Night-raptor - (Ashton) - (14)
         Re: Ode to a Nightingale.. ^h^h er Night-raptor - (Nightowl)
         Re: Ode to a Nightingale.. ^h^h er Night-raptor - (rcareaga) - (2)
             Re: Ode to a Nightingale.. ^h^h er Night-raptor - (Nightowl)
             Ah.. you sly dog, you - (Ashton)
         Re: Ode to a Nightingale.. ^h^h er Night-raptor - (Nightowl) - (9)
             Kind words noted and appreciated. - (Ashton) - (8)
                 Re: Kind words noted and appreciated. - (Nightowl) - (7)
                     On being confused by Ashton - (Silverlock) - (5)
                         Re: On being confused by Ashton - (Nightowl) - (4)
                             Others can correct me if I'm wrong - (Silverlock) - (3)
                                 Re: Others can correct me if I'm wrong - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                     On Features. - (static) - (1)
                                         Re: On Features. (new thread) - (Nightowl)
                     Simple:___>>>Google<<<____ Tyranny of Words Chase -NT - (Ashton)

I saw this floating around, and liked what it had to say.
78 ms