Post #110,081
7/17/03 3:00:42 AM
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Losing Courier IMAPd and sqWebMail sounds like a step back
Peter wrote:
from Courier to Cyrus, and from sqWebMail to OGo.o
The thought of putting my mail in a Cyrus database makes me queasy. The "much quicker" part (the alleged payoff) is unproven to my knowledge and is an a-priori suspicious argument because it's been abused too often in the past in roughly similar circumstances. Maildir format strikes me as a fine place to put mail.
Courier IMAPd's security history and likelihood of same continuing for the medium future seem excellent; not so Cyrus. (Not as bad as WU-IMAPd, but I don't get the warm fuzzies.)
And why would you be getting rid of sqWebMail, since OpenGroupware.org doesn't do e-mail at all?
Mind you, I'm intensely interested in this category, as I'm planning to deploy Web-accessible, iCalendar-compatible shared scheduling for my household in the near future. I have summaries of [link|http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/groupware|groupware] and [link|http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/applications-scheduling|scheduling] options, for starters, but haven't made my choice, yet.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #110,083
7/17/03 3:23:43 AM
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Re: Losing Courier IMAPd and sqWebMail sounds like a step ba
The thought of putting my mail in a Cyrus database makes me queasy. The "much quicker" part (the alleged payoff) is unproven to my knowledge and is an a-priori suspicious argument because it's been abused too often in the past in roughly similar circumstances. Maildir format strikes me as a fine place to put mail. Well, I can't really speak to that with hard numbers. However I am comfortable with the idea of a UNIX domain socket being much faster than a filesystem for IPC, plus you get the benefit that anything that goes over the socket uses SASL authentication. As far as a Cyrus DB goes, if Berkeley DB isn't sorted by now, it never will be :-) Courier IMAPd's security history and likelihood of same continuing for the medium future seem excellent; not so Cyrus. (Not as bad as WU-IMAPd, but I don't get the warm fuzzies.) Now you've piqued my interest. You're not telling me everything. Spill The Beans. And why would you be getting rid of sqWebMail, since OpenGroupware.org doesn't do e-mail at all? sqWebMail blows chunks. It's clunky, awkward and feature-sparse. For some people that's a good thing. For me, it's not. OG.o provides a rich, flexible interface to your email. Strictly speaking, you're correct; OG.o doesn't do mail. However, it DOES interface to your IMAP store, which, in practical terms, is "OG.o doing mail". Mind you, I'm intensely interested in this category, as I'm planning to deploy Web-accessible, iCalendar-compatible shared scheduling for my household in the near future. I have summaries of [link|http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/groupware|groupware] and [link|http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/applications-scheduling|scheduling] options, for starters, but haven't made my choice, yet. Well, it's very early days yet, but I'll keep you posted with how I get on with OG.o and how it pans out. I'm still ironing out a few wrinkles (all due to my impatience and resistance to R-ing the FM, I'm sure). One thing that does interest me greatly is the fact that you can attach documents to objects in the OG.o database. More on this later.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #110,085
7/17/03 4:28:46 AM
7/19/03 2:08:01 PM
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Re: Losing Courier IMAPd and sqWebMail sounds like a step ba
Peter wrote: However I am comfortable with the idea of a UNIX domain socket being much faster than a filesystem for IPC, plus you get the benefit that anything that goes over the socket uses SASL authentication. As far as a Cyrus DB goes, if Berkeley DB isn't sorted by now, it never will be :-)See, what sets off alarms for me is that that "using the filesystem is slow" argument has been abused to hell and back, such that one of the classic lessons of Unix is to stick to flat ASCII storage until there's a stunningly compelling reason to the contrary, and be suspicous of people trying to sell you something else. It's not that I have anything against BerkeleyDB files; it's just that there's no compelling advantage over Maildir, and the robustness and recoverability of the latter are hard to beat. And ordinary local file ownership does perfectly OK as authentication, without much benefit to be gained from adding magic crypto pixie dust. Now you've piqued my interest. You're not telling me everything. Spill The Beans.Can't remember details, but I distinctly remember that Courier IMAPd is considered to have far and away the best security design and history among such things. sqWebMail blows chunks. It's clunky, awkward and feature-sparse.In fact, I was wondering why you weren't running SquirrelMail, which has better aesthetics and seems generally much better liked. My guess is that you picked sqWebMail because it's in the Courier suite. OG.o provides a rich, flexible interface to your email.Oh, OK! You see, the OpenGroupware.org Web site states in emphatic terms that the suite does not aspire to ever do e-mail, so I took that literally. Good to know: I'll add that to my [link|http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/webmail|list] of webmail server packages. Well, it's very early days yet, but I'll keep you posted with how I get on with OG.o and how it pans out.Cool. I'll not be particularly interested in the webmail handling, but am very interested in the scheduling feature set. In particular, I have a funny feeling that no open-source scheduling server can yet handle:
- Free/busy negotiation among multiple users.
- "Secretary mode" access to someone else's schedule.
- ACLs for what various people can see/change/create on each others' schedules.
- Confirming, rejecting, rescheduling appointments with others.
- Dealing with "queued" new multi-user events arising (from either end) while the user is operating in detached mode, notifying affected users and letting them accept or reject them.
In short, I suspect that most such apps are just glorified storehouses for single-user iCalendar files or equivalent. Which is nice, but can't hope to compete with the MS-Outlook/MS-Exchange combination in the latter's area of excellence. Along those same lines is the Microsoft client/server suite's high levels of integration of e-mail, IMAP-style public folders, public and private address books, tasks, contact data, and (what you mention) attached documents. But I'd settle for a really capable scheduling server that properly accomodates groups of users who actually are allowed to schedule things in concert with one another. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Edited by rickmoen
July 19, 2003, 02:08:01 PM EDT
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Post #110,452
7/19/03 2:43:10 AM
7/19/03 2:50:13 AM
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Webmail
I mentioned my list of webmail server packages. Good god. I had no idea just how many there are. Here's my list:
To: vox-tech@lists.lugod.org
Subject: Re: [vox-tech] WebMutt?!!?
From: Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:15:49 -0700
Quoting Richard Crawford (rscrawford@mossroot.com):
> Does anyone know of a way that I can set up a web interface to my
> mailbox so I can check my mail via the web while on the road?
Nick Petreley cited a few, earlier this year (SquirrelMail, IMP, TWIG,
V-Webmail), in his series of articles on IMAP:
[link|http://www.linuxworld.com/story/32745_p.htm|http://www.linuxworl...story/32745_p.htm]
IMP: [link|http://www.horde.org/imp/|http://www.horde.org/imp/]
SquirrelMail: [link|http://www.squirrelmail.org/|http://www.squirrelmail.org/]
TWIG: [link|http://twig.screwdriver.net/|http://twig.screwdriver.net/]
V-webmail: [link|http://www.v-webmail.co.uk/|http://www.v-webmail.co.uk/]
Others:
acmemail: [link|http://www.astray.com/acmemail/|http://www.astray.com/acmemail/] Perl-CGI or mod_perl.
AtMail: [link|http://atmail.com/|http://atmail.com/] (Formerly Arrowmail.) Proprietary
AtDot: [link|http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/atdot/|http://savannah.nong...g/projects/atdot/]
AeroMail: [link|http://www.cushman.net/projects/aeromail/|http://www.cushman.n...rojects/aeromail/] Uses PHP's IMAP functions.
AngleMail: [link|http://www.anglemail.org/|http://www.anglemail.org/] Webmail app used in phpGroupWare.
BasiliX: [link|http://basilix.org/|http://basilix.org/]
BoboMail: [link|http://bobomail.sourceforge.net/|http://bobomail.sourceforge.net/] Python-based. CGI.
BrowserExpress: [link|http://www.browserexpress.com/|http://www.browserexpress.com/] Proprietary. CGI.
CAMAS: [link|http://www.caudium.net/camas/|http://www.caudium.net/camas/] Proprietary. For Caudium httpd.
cgiPop: [link|http://catchen.org/cgiPop/|http://catchen.org/cgiPop/] C-based.
Cloak & Dagger Messenger System: [link|http://cloakndagger.sourceforge.net/|http://cloakndagger.sourceforge.net/] Perl-CGI.
DBmail-webmail: [link|http://sourceforge.net/projects/dbmail-webmail/|http://sourceforge.n...s/dbmail-webmail/] PHP, DBmail.
DragonFlyMail: [link|http://www.dflytech.com/products/dragonflymail/|http://www.dflytech....ts/dragonflymail/] PHP.
FeLaMiMail: [link|http://linux-at-work.de/software.php|http://linux-at-work.de/software.php]
IlohaMail: [link|http://ilohamail.org/|http://ilohamail.org/] PHP
IMAP-PostAmt: [link|http://sourceforge.net/projects/postamt|http://sourceforge.net/projects/postamt] PHP. Cyrus imapd.
IMHO: [link|http://www.lysator.liu.se/~stewa/IMHO/|http://www.lysator.liu.se/~stewa/IMHO/] For Roxen httpd.
Just Another Webmail: [link|http://www.jawmail.org/|http://www.jawmail.org/] PHP's IMAP functions.
jwma: [link|http://jwma.sourceforge.net/|http://jwma.sourceforge.net/] Java.
kmMail: [link|http://kmmail.sourceforge.net/|http://kmmail.sourceforge.net/] PHP. Uses Keftamail?
NeoMail: [link|http://www.neomail.org/|http://www.neomail.org/] Perl-CGI.
netmania mail: [link|http://www.netmania.org/|http://www.netmania.org/] PHP, MySQL.
NOCC: [link|http://nocc.sourceforge.net/|http://nocc.sourceforge.net/] PHP-based.
Null Webmail: [link|http://nullwebmail.sourceforge.net/webmail/|http://nullwebmail.s...orge.net/webmail/] C, CGI.
Nwebmail: [link|http://nwebmail.sourceforge.net/|http://nwebmail.sourceforge.net/] C.
oMail-webmail: [link|http://omail.omnis.ch/|http://omail.omnis.ch/] For qmail.
OpenGroupware.org: [link|http://www.opengroupware.org/|http://www.opengroupware.org/]
OpenWebmail: [link|http://openwebmail.org/|http://openwebmail.org/] Perl-CGI.
phpop: [link|http://www.renaghan.com/pcr/phpop.html|http://www.renaghan.com/pcr/phpop.html] PHP.
PHPost: [link|http://webgadgets.com/phpost/|http://webgadgets.com/phpost/] PHP.
Prometheus Internet Mail Program (PIMP): [link|http://prometheus.zerodivide.net/apps/pimp/|http://prometheus.ze...de.net/apps/pimp/] PHP.
Popper: [link|http://www.ractive.ch/popper/|http://www.ractive.ch/popper/] PHP.
Postaci Webmail: [link|http://www.trlinux.com/|http://www.trlinux.com/]
pyWM: [link|http://pywm.org/|http://pywm.org/] Python.
Read Your Mail Online (rymo): [link|http://rymo.sourceforge.net/|http://rymo.sourceforge.net/] PHP.
Sak\ufffd Mail: [link|http://endymion.com/products/sake/mail/|http://endymion.com/products/sake/mail/] Proprietary. Java.
Spmail: [link|http://sourceforge.net/projects/spmail/|http://sourceforge.net/projects/spmail/]
sqWebMail: [link|http://www.courier-mta.org/|http://www.courier-mta.org/] [link|http://www.inter7.com/sqwebmail/|http://www.inter7.com/sqwebmail/] , either separately or as part of the Courier MTA suite
TMail: [link|http://www.groovin.net/tmail/|http://www.groovin.net/tmail/] PHP.
twiggi: [link|http://twiggi.sourceforge.net/|http://twiggi.sourceforge.net/] PHP.
Usermin: [link|http://www.webmin.com/uintro.html|http://www.webmin.com/uintro.html]
WAPMail: [link|http://e-sphere.net/|http://e-sphere.net/] PHP.
WebMail (by NetWin) : [link|http://www.netwinsite.com/webmail/|http://www.netwinsite.com/webmail/] Proprietary.
WebUMake Mail: [link|http://www.webumake.com/wmail/|http://www.webumake.com/wmail/] Proprietary.
Ywcmail: [link|http://ywcmail.sunsite.dk/|http://ywcmail.sunsite.dk/] C, CGI.
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Edited by rickmoen
July 19, 2003, 02:50:13 AM EDT
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Post #110,456
7/19/03 6:37:22 AM
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Re: Webmail
Yes, there's bloody zillions of the buggering things.
Problem is, though, that it's Sturgeon squared when it comes to this category of software.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #110,460
7/19/03 8:14:14 AM
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There is a lot to choose from...
I wonder if they're proliferating or merely hiding. I went looking for one a few years ago. In my exploration, I found lots that spoke POP3 but precious few that spoke IMAP. Or ones that knew mbox but not Maildir (I was using Courier IMAP on qmail at the time). I did an upgrade to Courier when I discovered SqWebMail.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #110,465
7/19/03 8:30:10 AM
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I've used both TWIG and Squirrelmail
After playing around with many others... Currently I'm using Squirrelmail as my main mail client. I like it, it's got a lot of plugins available for it (mail filters, weather, newsgroups, etc) as well as being customizable by user.
TWIG has useful calendar support and newsgroup support too, IIRC - but it has been a few years since I've run it.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #110,497
7/19/03 2:15:02 PM
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Re: There is a lot to choose from...
Wade wrote:
I wonder if they're proliferating or merely hiding. I went looking for one a few years ago. In my exploration, I found lots that spoke POP3 but precious few that spoke IMAP.
Well, that part has definitely changed. My links should help you there, if you're curious.
Or ones that knew mbox but not Maildir (I was using Courier IMAP on qmail at the time). I did an upgrade to Courier when I discovered SqWebMail.
If the webmail application will fetch using any IMAPd, I can't imagine it having problem using Courier. (Mind you, I haven't historically used any MDA other than procmail: I read my mail directly from my MTA's SMTP spool using mutt. No POP3 or IMAP here, just sshd and screen.) Dealing with outbound mail would be a tiny bit more complex, but it's not like the world lacks little utilities that can batch-convert mbox to Maildir.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #110,527
7/19/03 11:56:38 PM
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couple of things ICLRPD and a wtf
LPD: See, what sets off alarms for me is that that "using the filesystem is slow" argument has been abused to hell and back, such that one of the classic lessons of Unix is to stick to flat ASCII storage until there's a stunningly compelling reason to the contrary, and be suspicous of people trying to sell you something else. halleluia chorus on dat And ordinary local file ownership does perfectly OK as authentication, without much benefit to be gained from adding magic crypto pixie dust. if you have access to my box and can view the file it is only a matter of time before you find the magic pixie dust encryption dust uid and passwds in an ascii file in the /opt/pixiedustfiles/config directory world readable. thanx. bill questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #110,089
7/17/03 7:19:51 AM
7/17/03 7:22:05 AM
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OGo in action (61K png)
[image|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org/pics/tech/screenies/ogo.png||The OpenGroupware.org web interface||]
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
Edited by pwhysall
July 17, 2003, 07:22:05 AM EDT
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Post #110,172
7/17/03 3:05:48 PM
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Re: OGo in action (61K png)
Pretty nice. I see signs of some form of support for scheduling, contacts, mail, netnews, a to-do list, and tasks/projects.
I believe you can do some data coordination with PIMs (Kontact, Evolution, Aethera, KOrganizer, Glow, Chandler, TradeClient, Spaces, Mozilla Calendar) by sending iCalendar datafiles, and with PalmOS PDAs over some form of HotSync (not to mention the usual sort of proprietary MAPI-provider plug-in for the poor bastards on MS-Outlook). Plus XML-RPC for god-knows-what. (It's a bit of an overbuilt code hairball, I fear.)
But that iCalendar-centrism still suggests that the calendar functionality I cited in my earlier post isn't there. The iCalendar data format is useful, but it's only part of an IETF protocol stack for scheduling, most of which has never yet been implemented. And it's starting to look like progress on that front is going to remain stalled for lack of a reference implementation.
Something you could help me clear up, whenever you get around to syncing calendar data with some non-Web client piece, e.g., Mozilla Calendar: What does OpenGroupware.org use as a method to authenticate users for calendar data, and as a transport to send it? I'm guessing WebDAV/HTTP, but it would be nice to get confirmation.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #110,538
7/20/03 4:26:29 AM
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On screenshots
On a not terribly atypical 1024x768 display, the screenshot above forces the forum text to a horizontal overflow of about 30%. I'd suggest you link, rather than include, such images, or limit screens to ~300x400 pels, or thumbnail larger images. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #110,539
7/20/03 4:32:38 AM
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30%!! My God!! How did you survive the ordeal?!?
--
Chris Altmann
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Post #110,609
7/20/03 10:02:22 PM
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ROFL!
Alex
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Post #110,629
7/20/03 11:52:22 PM
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ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #110628 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=110628|ICLRPD]
| [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] |
THEY ARE WATCHING YOU. The time has come for you to take the last step. You must love THEM. It is not enough to obey THEM. You must love THEM. PEACE BEGETS WAR, SLAVERY IS FREEDOM, STRENGTH IN IGNORANCE.
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