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New When you say it like that....

It undermines your point.

NRA's Unbiased Statistics Patriot Sub-Group

That's twice that you've intimated that the statistics presented to put the AMA in context are skewed. Without any backing. When you're being sarcastic like that, you seriously hurt your argument.

The whole point was that the doctors *did* just what you just did - "NRA, Guns, evil evil, nevermind what doctors do or any other numbers".

You were asking about irony?

Or mentioning conspiracy? Well.. when you consistantly accept anybody ELSE'S figures without checking, but denigrates ones you (presume) come from the NRA...... and make fun of people who say that you're conspiring? Errr. Irony?

Addison
New It's called______satire.
I'll explain it to you - but Just This Once - OK?

[explanation of satire]
It isn't supposed to be 'accurate'. It didn't (yet) happen.
(Nor is it necessary to have numbers (in decimal or octal) in order to make - either comparative statements or to lampoon those who live by numbers and deductions from them - ignoring all human feelings ABOUT what it was - the numbers putatively 'measured' or seemed-to)

It is in response to Mike's suggestion... mention guns and you'll get a response!

Which was my point FROM THE BEGINNING:
The AMA's ongoing record of non-self-regulation was looked into by YAN gruntled or anti-gruntled or dis-gruntled OUTRAGED gun owner - rilly upset that some people just fucking despise his pet toy - yes: *his* lovely toy.

ie *ONLY* as a ploy:

to vindicate ??? his beloved guns, attacked by a mean doctor who said:

They make a bloody mess of people I have to work on.

(I also suppose that Drs who treat gun victims daily *WOULD* bloody well HATE GUNS - if they are both sane AND Doctors too.)

THAT was the gun guy's SOLE actual Interest! - screw the AMA Doctors' execrable record: as a matter of General Interest\ufffd !!!

His aim was only: being One-Up on the bad, mean Doctor's er savage attack on guns (each of which presumably has an owner or two (since some gun owners seem to share?))

[/explanation of satire]

It may not be a particularly good satire; it was just a spontaneous response to Mike's remark + the *so evident sole motive* for the AMA-Dr. thing even being mentioned.

(as to statistics of any kind about guns, from the NRA - I look on them precisely as I look on statistics of any kind about computers, from Microsoft)

That's it. That's all there is,



Ashton
New Believe me, I understand satire.
And satire is very difficult to pull off. Even MORE so when you've got a political agenda to further with it. Often it turns into sarcasm and contempt.

Look at satire TV shows. How many effectively can satirize political views they agree with? How many _effectively_ satirize opposing points? I find that usually the latter is almost impossible.

It isn't supposed to be 'accurate'. It didn't (yet) happen.

Satire has to be "close enough" for the impression to be close to correct. Dana Carvey. His take on George Bush.... it was close enough that you knew who he was going after, and it was funny. Ross Perot - he did to the degree that people I know who saw SNL's "ad" for the presidental campaign *thought that was Ross Perot*.

That's satire.

(as to statistics of any kind about guns, from the NRA - I look on them precisely as I look on statistics of any kind about computers, from Microsoft)

Then that's your failing, and it means that you're not satirizing, not really. I know you do. In fact, these numbers aren't even FROM the NRA, but you presume that and therefore are justified with your sarcasm and contempt (Not satire).

The AMA's ongoing record of non-self-regulation was looked into by YAN gruntled or anti-gruntled or dis-gruntled OUTRAGED gun owner - rilly upset that some people just fucking despise his pet toy - yes: *his* lovely toy.

Get fucking over it, Ashton.

You didn't bother to read the original link. This was a CALL for *outlawing* guns, passing more legislation, as a "medical epidemic" based on statistics OUT OF CONTEXT. I realise that you buy into this paradise where if there weren't guns, there wouldn't be crime, but guess what? It Ain't So.

This was the *HEAD* of the AMA - using his position to lobby for outlawing gun ownership. In other words, using his position for a political point.

And when you put the numbers into context, he doesn't HAVE a case.

As pointed out, doctor malpractice is FAR more dangerous than guns - something he should be worried about, IN HIS POSITION.

(I also suppose that Drs who treat gun victims daily *WOULD* bloody well HATE GUNS - if they are both sane AND Doctors too.)

The doctors I know don't hate the guns, any more than they hate the cars that mangle people.

Unlike you, they usually quite successfully put matters into a context. (And aside from that, several that I know carry concealed weapons to prevent criminals from attempting to take from them the fruits of their hard labor - or abortion opponents from making a case with violence.)

From the article: "Americans use guns to defend themselves 2.4 million times a year, according to the Gun Owners Foundation," he said. "So Corlin's anti-gun agenda could harm -- or even kill -- 2.4 million innocent Americans every year. That's medical malpractice on a grand scale."

Again, putting things in context.

For you - the GOA is completely unaffilated with the NRA. They're completely and purely a lobbying group. (The NRA isn't).

So 'satire' by making fun of somebody else... isn't. satirzing the democrats by making fun of what happened at the republican convention... No, that's not satire. So stop explaining it to ME and start thinking about what you're doing.

Oh, and it was the Libertarians pointing this out.

Not the NRA.

Addison
New A couple of points
First of all doctors kill a lot of people. But far from all of that is malpractice. Many operations carry a risk of immediate death. Patients are told that. They sign a form that warns them up front that general anesthesia carries something like a 1% risk of death. They know they are about to be cut up and this is a dangerous thing to do.

Now there is no question that malpractice exists and is a real problem. However if a doctor saws your chest open, cuts out your heart, and you die in the process, it isn't necessarily malpractice. Sure, the doctor killed you. But even a casual description makes it clear that you could die. It isn't necessarily the doctor's fault.

As for the other point, doctors who work in the ER may not hate cars. But they are sickened by the fact that people still don't wear seat belts. But that is a question of education.

My proposal for that is quite simple. What they used to get seatbelt laws passed was a simple device. A ramp. With rails. The frame of a car. And a barrier. Seat the person in the driver's seat and belt them in. Put a dummy without a belt in the passenger seat. Let go at the top, the impact is about 20 mph. The device is effective. It left people shaken and willing to vote for mandatory seat belt laws.

My suggestion is bring it back. Before you can get a car license you have to take the ride. A simple exercise in applied physics, part of your education. After they see the dummy fly out the window say, "When you drive the car, that passenger is your responsibility. Buckle up and make sure they do as well."

Cheers,
Ben
New Why restrict to wheeled projectiles?
Admittedly they are a necessity, and ignorance of their physics maims and kills. Every minute.

Maybe before anyone's first purchase of a projectile type weapon (of smaller size than a car):

One views some slo-mo photos of such a projectile striking a few places in the human anatomy. Before and after, with sound. And in color.

Lest there be any doubt that the fun stuff in movies is a bit different from actual. Lest one suggest later, gosh I didn't know it would do THAT..

(Once you've viewed this, of course - you get your sticker to present to the 7-11 attendant when you want your 2nd or maybe 25th 'pocket projectile launcher'.)

Just a thought.



Ashton
most everything visible IS about physics
New I rode that
They offered us the choice to ride it with or without the seatbelt. (Ours didn't have the co-pilot seat for the dummy, so I guess we were the dummies.) Only if you didn't use the belt, you had to close your eyes so you wouldn't know exactly when you would hit. I already wear seatbelts, so all it convinced me of was that it would hurt even with belts at only 20 mph.

But as for using it to convince people to pass the law ... Wouldn't it be better to have them at every testing location and make people ride it before taking their test? I don't need a law to tell me to wear a seatbelt, any more than I need one to tell me to wear a helmet on a motorcycle. Just like I don't need a law telling me to bring oxygen if I try to scale Mt. Everest. (Not that I'm about to try.)

In general, I don't like laws that exist solely to protect me from myself. Demonstrating how important seatbelts are is IMO the way to encourage their use. It should not be a way to convince someone to pass a law.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
     LP Release: Doctors & Guns - (Fearless Freep) - (46)
         Ain't that the truth. -NT - (bepatient)
         Funny how.. - (Ashton) - (11)
             Maybe I missed the joke. - (addison) - (10)
                 Er.. 'victims' Meant: of the non-policed MDs - (Ashton) - (9)
                     Noise levels - (mhuber) - (7)
                         Or maybe... Conspiracy!! to off gun-owners! - (Ashton) - (6)
                             When you say it like that.... - (addison) - (5)
                                 It's called______satire. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                     Believe me, I understand satire. - (addison) - (3)
                                         A couple of points - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                             Why restrict to wheeled projectiles? - (Ashton)
                                             I rode that - (drewk)
                     Its a contextual issue. - (addison)
         The IoM report is here. - (Another Scott) - (1)
             Re: Nurses giving the wrong meds - (drewk)
         Reply from the DSGL - (addison) - (30)
             Swell.. yawn. But you still don't get the irony? - (Ashton) - (29)
                 Yes, I *get* the irony. The Irony is that you don't. :) - (addison) - (28)
                     Polarization is so easy. Thus popular. - (Ashton) - (27)
                         Sorry, but that's not consistent - (drewk) - (5)
                             Downward spiral? - (Ashton) - (3)
                                 But which is the "reasonable" fear? - (drewk) - (2)
                                     Re: But which is the "reasonable" fear? - (addison) - (1)
                                         Heh.. find self in basic agreement with Both of you,here:-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton)
                             Except... - (addison)
                         Which has nothing at all to do with this subject. - (addison) - (20)
                             While it all 'has to do with this subject' - our filters - (Ashton) - (11)
                                 No, Ash, it doesn't. - (addison)
                                 Let us parse, despite the 90\ufffd polaroid filter pair: - (Ashton) - (9)
                                     180 Degrees apart. - (addison) - (3)
                                         Uhh... - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                             yup, dont see many fist fights - (boxley)
                                             Re: Uhh... - (addison)
                                     Well Addison, you make your points here well enough that, - (Ashton) - (4)
                                         Thank you. Let me try to make at least one more. - (addison) - (3)
                                             En passant - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                 I believe your anger is misplaced. - (addison) - (1)
                                                     camels nose under the tent :) - (boxley)
                             Could be, but I doubt it. - (CRConrad) - (7)
                                 Its not fear. - (addison) - (6)
                                     A couple of points... - (CRConrad) - (5)
                                         The irony continues. :) - (addison) - (4)
                                             Oh, bullshit. - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                 No. - (addison) - (2)
                                                     OK.. is it alright to change the scale, now? - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                         Precis: - (pwhysall)

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