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New ROFL
-drl
New ha ha, very funny. Laff it up, furball
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Re: ha ha, very funny. Laff it up, furball
He was simply pointing out, in a dry sarcastic [Russian][Ukranian] way, that DBAing is a lot different than writing up a theory of tables.
-drl
New Like I said, IN PRACTICE most sites just use the defaults
IOW, the exam does not really reflect common reality. Just because there are 300 setup/performance parameters that CAN be tweaked does not mean that every site tweaks them often.

If performance is really that important that somebody has to tweak that huge contraption all the time, then maybe IBM should split DBA's into "Database Performance Managers", and "Database Content Managers". The skills to design a good schema are quite different than those for tweaking buffer sizes or file arrangements for performance. (In theory, schemas should not reflect performance, but in practice they do somewhat. Chris Date suggests that this is due to retarded vendors and not relational theory. Regardless, it is a controversial topic.)

One fits more of the bit-twiddler mentality, and the other more of a business analyst. In my experience, such skills tend to be somewhat mutually exclusive.
________________
oop.ismad.com
Expand Edited by tablizer June 28, 2003, 12:34:15 AM EDT
Expand Edited by tablizer June 28, 2003, 12:38:07 AM EDT
New Beg to differ...
Bryce the Table King said:
IOW, the exam does not really reflect common reality. Just because there are 300 setup/performance parameters that CAN be tweaked does not mean that every site tweaks them often.
First of... when a company chooses to use one of the "big three" (MSSQL, Oracle or DB2)(TB3 from here on out) they have already found that they _-*>NEED<*-_ these extended features.

Most application using TB3, need the special tables constraints and indexing and properties of relations, using stored procedures is heavily affected by NON-use of these things. Many, Many DBAs have great skill in applying these little pieces of magic doing optimizations.

They can sometimes take a query that as designed takes HOURS to complete and pegs the DB machine heavily during that time-frame, to a make it a 2 minute query and still going through the same amount of data, just by aplying those table constraints and properties.

What it comes down to Bryce on *THAT* single statement alone you made, that you really have not seen ANY ERP, MRP or CRM solution that is designed for multi-user applications. Sure ACT! is great but it ain't SHIITE compared to Learning Solutions (which is an extremely integrated CRM aimed at Educational Institutions) from Peoplesoft. Sure QuickBooks is COOL and rocks... But a typical HRM/AP/AR solution aimed at any Fortune 2000 sized company Blows it away for sheer completeness and usability.

These kinds of applications *NEED* and *WANT* those tweaks... if you can't use and/or understand them and how or when to apply them... then you won't be a successful DBA.


Bryce yon sayeth again:
If performance is really that important that somebody has to tweak that huge contraption all the time, then maybe IBM should split DBA's into "Database Performance Managers", and "Database Content Managers". The skills to design a good schema are quite different than those for tweaking buffer sizes or file arrangements for performance. (In theory, schemas should not reflect performance, but in practice they do somewhat. Chris Date suggests that this is due to retarded vendors and not relational theory. Regardless, it is a controversial topic.)

One fits more of the bit-twiddler mentality, and the other more of a business analyst. In my experience, such skills tend to be somewhat mutually exclusive.
Yes, performance is really *THAT* important. DBA stands for DataBase Administrator. Given that acronym, let us actually goto and find out exactly what DBA means.
As found [link|http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/gDefinition/0,294236,sid7_gci214169,00.html|HERE], Database Administrator means:
A database administrator (DBA) directs or performs all activities related to maintaining a successful database environment. Responsibilities include designing, implementing, and maintaining the database system; establishing policies and procedures pertaining to the management, security, maintenance, and use of the database management system; and training employees in database management and use. A DBA is expected to stay abreast of emerging technologies and new design approaches. Typically, a DBA has either a degree in Computer Science and some on-the-job training with a particular database product or more extensive experience with a range of database products. A DBA is usually expected to have experience with one or more of the major database management products, such as Structured Query Language, SAP, and Oracle-based database management software.
Okay, anywhere in there does the definition include BUSINESS ANALYST? No it does not. a DBA is a mechanic of the high-perfomace data-engine. a BUSINESS ANALYST is an individual that is in essence a person that *devises* how the DB is to be used to help the company fit the ERP/CRM/HRM/MRP/BLAH to the company. NO where that *I* know of does a DBA, that is a DBA, do "content management." That would fall into the realm of a Software Analyst's job, and you seem to be co-mingling the two/three.


Bryce, you seem to not have ever been in a situation where TB3 is used this way. Until you actually *SEE* that environment you'll never know why those tweaks are needed.

[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

THEY ARE WATCHING YOU.
The time has come for you to take the last step.
You must love THEM.
It is not enough to obey THEM.
You must love THEM.

PEACE BEGETS WAR, SLAVERY IS FREEDOM, STRENGTH IN IGNORANCE.
New I don't think we are communicating
you seem to not have ever been in a situation where TB3 is used this way. Until you actually *SEE* that environment you'll never know why those tweaks are needed.

Nowhere did I say that the tweaks were not necessary.

Think of it this way. A large organization is probably going to have more than one DBA, probably many. Wouldn't it make sense to split them into specialties such that one group focuses more on logical design and the other on physical issues (performance)?

then you won't be a successful DBA.

Maybe not. It was Ziwethey'ers who suggested I persue that line of work because it was less damaged by OO zealotry. A lot of people seem to get off on performance tweeking, but I would rather focus on maintainability and simplicity of software design from developers' perspectives, not making chips happy.

Maybe I should get a cert in PL/SQL instead? Or, is Java killing that too? Why is everyone copying the spahgetti Sun model? When will the Sun fad die?
________________
oop.ismad.com
New point == missed
I basically was saying, if you want to learn DB2, then you need to get books written that way. One written with a lessopn to teach. Not a book based on reviewing data that you know but was lost in the spider-web covered areas of your mind.

You said:
Nowhere did I say that the tweaks were not necessary.
No you never said that, true. But you *DID* say:
Most shops probably just use the defaults,
in [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=107459|DB2 Cert Monster]. And NO, most places that don't need those features DON'T use TB3. As default install is VERY VERY sucky for nearly anything except the Oracle Demo.

And I never said you should never NOT get a cert in DB2, I said that you need to know when and where to apply these tweaks to BE a successful DBA. Just not exactly those terms.

SO, overall the point is, you need to learn HOW to be a DB2 DBA before you study refresher material for a certification. Which mean additional purchases of books and plowing through them.

Personally I read Technical books 4-6 times. Getting progressively INTO the book. First read the book quickly to get a good feel for the overall works of the book, then second read it again, picking up info related to the concepts garnered in the first pass. Third read, start to ponder the details as you read, this being the third time you read it, should be very familiar. 4th+ read, clearing of the fog reads... helps me understand the WHOLE book not jst the pieces I need NOW...

[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

THEY ARE WATCHING YOU.
The time has come for you to take the last step.
You must love THEM.
It is not enough to obey THEM.
You must love THEM.

PEACE BEGETS WAR, SLAVERY IS FREEDOM, STRENGTH IN IGNORANCE.
     DB2 Cert Monster - (tablizer) - (20)
         Real Tables, meet Tablizer. Tablizer, meet Real Tables. -NT - (Arkadiy) - (7)
             ROFL -NT - (deSitter) - (6)
                 ha ha, very funny. Laff it up, furball -NT - (tablizer) - (5)
                     Re: ha ha, very funny. Laff it up, furball - (deSitter) - (4)
                         Like I said, IN PRACTICE most sites just use the defaults - (tablizer) - (3)
                             Beg to differ... - (folkert) - (2)
                                 I don't think we are communicating - (tablizer) - (1)
                                     point == missed - (folkert)
         Compare... - (folkert) - (3)
             You have to know enough about databases - (boxley)
             re: Compare... - (tablizer) - (1)
                 It was meant the way you read it. :) -NT - (folkert)
         So, anybody want to buy a slightly used DB2 cert study book? -NT - (tablizer) - (7)
             How much? -NT - (folkert) - (6)
                 $22 + shipping. Got paypal? - (tablizer) - (5)
                     do I hear $18? -NT - (tablizer) - (4)
                         $16 + Shipping - (folkert) - (3)
                             I probably would not know shipping $ ahead of time.Plan B... - (tablizer) - (2)
                                 NO NO NO NO NO NO. I won't short you, Bryce. - (folkert) - (1)
                                     People still use cheques? (new thread) - (Meerkat)

When you're holding the Moon for ransom, you value stability in an application.
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