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New Well, that's something else that needs to change.
Our puritanical attitude towards drugs is wasting huge amounts of money trying to stop the problem at the production point, and creating even more resentful hordes abroad who will grow up hating us.

Let them grow poppies if they want, and try to sell them to us. Put tarrifs on them at the border, and funnel the money into drug treatment programs.

Hell, I doubt there'd be a drug problem if we stuck 1/10th of the money into education that we do into enforcement...
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Our puritanical attitude toward heroin?
Chan man, if you'd ever seen what speed does to people, you'd be puritanical too.

And drug treatment is a poor substitute for prevention. Shame on you.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New I know drugs screw people up.
And I know that whatever we do to try and stop the influx of drugs, there are people who will find a way to take them. I attended Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington during the early 1990's - the level of drugs done there during that period was roughly equivalent to the drug use at a lot of campuses during the '60s. This was nasty shit, too - speedballs, cocaine, heroin, meth...

I was maybe one of three people that attended that college without getting high.

The question you have to ask is what are we getting out of the drug prohibition - and the answer is still "not much good." Loss of civil rights, people arrested and thrown in jail for "victimless" crimes (taking drugs), and a lot of really nasty people getting their hands on drug money, then turning around and using it to screw up our country. Not to mention the hipocracy of allowing alcohol and tobacco, but not any other form of narcotic.

As much as it might turn your stomach to think about it, I say legalize drugs, provide a safe environment in which people can take it (make them legal only in "clinics" where their behavior while stoned can be monitored), and by doing so, we can massively undercut the drug cartel prices, and drive them out of business at the same time. Funnel all the money that was spent on "policing" activities into training and treatment, and I'll bet you'll have a much healthier society in about twenty years.

Of course, we'd put out of work all those people who rely on having the "drug" demon around to kick, but they're in it to guarantee their own income, not to actually stop the drug trade. Oh, wait, they're called politicians, and we elected them. Never mind.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New So you'd fight the monster...
by becoming the monster and then competing with it.

You don't solve a problem by shoving it off into some clinic somewhere, and then saying, "oh, the government's keeping an eye on it, I'm sure they'll keep those poor people from hurting themselves." That's not a solution. That's a whitewash.

And if you think "training" and treatment are going to work better than police activites, you're living in a dream world. Those detox centers should have revolving doors. You can't treat crime as a matter of public hygiene. There's a world of difference between peddling horse and neglecting to wash your hands after using the restroom.

Say the worst you can about the War on Drugs and all that. This silly talk of yours is still far worse. Until a better idea comes along - and no, it hasn't - I say stick with trying to put pushers behind bars. Users, too, for reasons given below.

And please don't suggest that drug use is a victimless crime. Even alcohol abuse isn't victimless. I've been a victim of alcohol abuse by others, and I've seen children neglected by their drug addict mothers. It's not pretty. And let's not talk of the pedestrians run over by drivers stoned out their worthless minds. Or killed for no particular reason, by thugs high on dust. Victimless crime my ass.

Have you actually thought any of this through? Everything you say on this subject reads like soft-left boilerplate. Its like you cut-and-pasted it out of Salon or something.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Yes I have.
Regrettably, some people are beyond hope. You can reach out, offer assistance, but if the person won't take it, then YOU CANNOT HELP THEM. PERIOD.

So, what are you going to do about that kind of person? Criminalize their actions, lock them up, screw them and their families over, and make certain that others will suffer for their deeds? Or are you going to give them all the rope they need to get out of the way, and make sure they don't hurt others?

And how about our society's attitude towards alcohol and nicotine abuse? Will we continue to endorse those drugs while banning others? Either ban it all, or don't try.

I understand your point about "victimless" crimes - one of the suggestions I have for people who show up at drug clinics is mandatory sterilization. Not to mention possible removal of their children from the family, etc. until they clean themselves up. The whole point is to salvage those who really want to be salvaged, and to get those who don't want to be salvaged away from the public, away from their families, away from threatening the rest of us until they do themselves in. Habitual drug use is a form of suicide, it just takes longer.

I reached most of these conclusions on my own, without the standard liberal claptrap. I've experienced what happens when druggies take it out on their kids and significant others - I've had a few friends in that situation, that I had to help out. I've dealt with the detrius, and I've had to take the trash out on occasion.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Re: Yes I have.
Criminalize their actions, lock them up, screw them and their families over, and make certain that others will suffer for their deeds?

one of the suggestions I have for people who show up at drug clinics is mandatory sterilization. ...The whole point is...to get those who don't want to be salvaged away from the public, away from their families, away from threatening the rest of us until they do themselves in.

Ooooooookaaayyyyyyy
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Do you like crack babies?
Permanantly retarded children with serious emotional and learning difficulties that are born addicted to crack. They cost society, for the most part, a fairly large amount of money in social security payments, in prison costs, and in helping them (and often their victims) to put their lives back together.

All because their parents were addicts.

I'm not saying you HAVE to get sterilized - just like you don't HAVE to take drugs. Just if you want cheap, easily availible drugs, you don't get children. If you want to take drugs, you don't have to hide it from the rest of the world - we'll just help you find somewhere you can do it without hurting anybody else.

THAT'S the idea.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Problem is...
...your 'solution' is exactly the same as what we have now. Seperation and isolation and physical punishment of the guilty

Only thing is you've tossed in the ambiguity of now having to have the state decide who is guilty based on not what they've done, but what their intent is believed to be
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New I'm all for sterilizing hard drug addicts.
Including alcoholics. Make it mandatory if they commit a crime while under the influence, or to pay for their next fix. We don't want these people breeding. They haven't got what it takes to be adequate parents, never mind a prenatal environment that is quite literally poisonous. Also, a certain segment of them are more than a bit inbred, in the genetic sense.

I don't think this idea will catch on though. Our society isn't ready for it yet.

Plus, there's this vague nagging doubt in the back of my mind. Something about a slippery slope, and the Nazi era in Germany...
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Half the world...
....doesn't want the other half breeding form some perfectly reasonable reason

You're right, slippery slope
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Quite a mixture there...
Hi,

... one of the suggestions I have for people who show up at drug clinics is mandatory sterilization.

How would that help? Why would a man or woman go under the knife to get a hit of heroin? Wouldn't they simply get it off the street?

There are lots of approaches to dealing with drugs which have been tried. Executions, "coffee houses" and lots in between.

I'm of a general libertarian bent, so decriminalization has some appeal to me. But how far do we carry it? How much of a bureaucracy should we build to tax it? Do we want a whole edifice like state lottery boards popping up to encorage people to use "safe" drugs? Do we want TV ads for maryjane? I don't know....

The whole point is to salvage those who really want to be salvaged, and to get those who don't want to be salvaged away from the public, away from their families, away from threatening the rest of us until they do themselves in. Habitual drug use is a form of suicide, it just takes longer.

"Life is not lost by dying; life is lost minute by minute, day by dragging day, in all the thousand small uncaring ways." - Stephen Vincent Benet

Who decides who will be salvaged? How do you separate casual users, who may have a habit which lasts decades, with dangerous habitual users, who may have a habit which lasts decades?

Life is complicated. It's hard to reconcile a free society with controls on dangerous substances which have wide appeal. There's no easy, effective, popularly supported (pick 2) solution to this problem, IMHO.

Cheers,
Scott.

New Casual heroin users?
Are you sure that such people even exist?

William Burroughs would beg to disagree. And he's been there.


[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New I was apparently misinformed.
I'd heard that Jackson Browne was a heroin addict for a long time. It seems that he [link|http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/1996-05-30/film2.html|hung around some] for a time, but I can't find anything about him in particular. It seems to be a mistaken rumor.

I thought it was strange to hear such things, but figured - "hey, you never know...".

Thanks for the correction.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Casual heroin users? Not so.
Probably much more than you imagine. Driving cabs, holding jobs across the spectrum -- it is the $$-cost which so alters the equation that, (once physiologically addicted in the US) -- and with no income: then comes the crime, to try to 'survive', with obvious replay of all those now familiar scenarios. Except for the lunatic few - maintenance dosage does NOT impair most activities, nor 'show' in personality traits - nor noticeably affect health generally. Malnutrition, etc. derive from having no money after getting that artificially-priced fix.

Naturally there are few stats on such users, so it is easy to presume this is an urban myth (our fav art form - those).
Years ago on two occasions I snorted a line of so-called decent grade. I did so not from some wish to experience a kewler-high yada yada, or from some psych. need for the claimed 'release': but hearsay is just that. I wanted to *know* at least something about the attraction, and I trusted that my mental state was adequate to any of those I might discover. (*Nothing* is "the only thing without some risk")

Nausea - the first-time user WILL experience that, such that you don't.. want.. to.. move.. (!) or just very slowly, for some time. Peace. THAT is what is induced. "Nothing matters" very much and, that is a state rarely experienced here -- it is perhaps the Nemesis state of normal Murican 24/7 hustling: for $$, for notoriety? for attention.. or the usual mindless diversion from - anything like silence, from introspection, from solitude.

Two experiences makes me no expert on any aspect, especially as the phenomenon might affect a wide variety of personalities in various life situations. But at least I understand crudely: the appeal. In fact, my view is that -- were we generally as a species, *less bound* to repeat-endlessy some new-found pleasant experience ?? Heroin would be in every medicine cabinet, and several times a year: would facilitate healing from a variety of ugly mindsets. Nothing else comes close, though ALL drug use is about: escaping from a daily 'reality' one WANTS to escape from. Some how..

But we aren't generally possessed of that discretion - we are besotted with comfort or the desire Never to be.. uncomfortable for more than a few minutes.. yada yada. And so: that idea IS a pipe dream, workable only among the few adults (??) as exist here and elsewhere.

IMhO Murica has devolved into an inherently juvenile-focussed society dedicated to the kind of vicarious 'living' seen in escapist 'action' flics; what else does it say about us that, the most popular type of film IS about heaped dead burnt bodies + sirens and car chases? (Pauline Kael was on NPR a few days ago, explaining that she left 'reviewing movies' as -- virtually all the new ones were beneath contempt and, no improvement was in sight). The consumer part is about: imagining that possession of lots of stuff.. makes up for an impoverished inauthentic 'life'. Hah..

So in a way I agree with that part of Marlowe's view of the need for 'prevention', though whatever is done - is bound to fuck with civil liberties - and no such solution can address the ROOT cause:

That we have created an environment of celebrity worship of the banal, of mindless infotainment: that and more is WHAT the wannabe heroin user means to (try to) ESCAPE! Alas, if your head is still fucked-up for whatever constellation of reasons and personal immaturity: heroin won't un-fuck it either!

Thus, I have no nicely packaged 'solution' either, unless it be the impossible one to implement: Gehabt Kindern !! now.. grow up. Then we can all talk - *but not before* - it'll just be more fairy tales about Rugged Induhvidualism and the Murican Way. More about 'machine people' molded to accommodate a 24/7 $-besotted Corporate nation. Heard all that.



Ashton
New You'd rather write off people than try to prevent...
their getting messed up the first place? And they call *me* hardboiled.

And you want the government involved in all this? Build special prisons with free hop for the junkies? And yes, you're talking prisons. That what "getting them out of the way" amounts to in practise. Either that, or lock them up in the attic like they did with senile grandmothers and retarded kids in the old days. I'm no fan of detox, but this is worse.

Good grief, Chanster. Everything you propose as a replacement is worse than what you decry. Is it any wonder you made such a big deal of America's sins when non-Americans had just slaughtered thousands of civilians in cold blood? Your problem is you have no sense of proportion. None.

Oh, and we already tried banning booze. It was too late. Plus booze is way easier to make than heroin. And those are the only things that were wrong with the idea. So that's a false analogy right there. We stuck with the booze problem, but we're not stuck with pandemic heroin addiction. Not yet, anyway. but if you have your way, we will be.

(Maybe we should inject Antabuse into potatoes sold in certain inner city neighborhoods. Even drunks gotta eat sometimes. Yes, it's got some side effects, and it's not known what it'll do to the few non-alcoholics to be found in such places, but that's the lesser evil.)

Another false analogy of yours: nicotine. I've seen what cigarettes do to people, and it's not pretty, but it's a cakewalk compared to heroin. Or even alcohol, for that matter.

Heroin dealers are scum. This is true whether they're legal or not. If they're legal, that's a problem with the law. This is a malum in se. Shoot them like rabid dogs.

Bottom line: No, you haven't though this through.




[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
     US repeating cold war mistakes - (bluke) - (42)
         This is exactly what I was warning against. - (inthane-chan) - (32)
             Find us some non-monsters with teeth, and we'll talk. - (marlowe) - (31)
                 We have teeth. - (inthane-chan) - (30)
                     So what you're saying is... - (marlowe) - (29)
                         I didn't say occupy. - (inthane-chan) - (28)
                             You do realize you're not making sense, don't you? - (marlowe) - (27)
                                 I wouldn't call it imperialism. - (inthane-chan) - (26)
                                     Trouble is... - (Simon_Jester) - (22)
                                         Well, that's something else that needs to change. - (inthane-chan) - (14)
                                             Our puritanical attitude toward heroin? - (marlowe) - (13)
                                                 I know drugs screw people up. - (inthane-chan) - (12)
                                                     So you'd fight the monster... - (marlowe) - (11)
                                                         Yes I have. - (inthane-chan) - (10)
                                                             Re: Yes I have. - (Fearless Freep) - (4)
                                                                 Do you like crack babies? - (inthane-chan) - (3)
                                                                     Problem is... - (Fearless Freep)
                                                                     I'm all for sterilizing hard drug addicts. - (marlowe) - (1)
                                                                         Half the world... - (Fearless Freep)
                                                             Quite a mixture there... - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                                 Casual heroin users? - (marlowe) - (2)
                                                                     I was apparently misinformed. - (Another Scott)
                                                                     Re: Casual heroin users? Not so. - (Ashton)
                                                             You'd rather write off people than try to prevent... - (marlowe)
                                         Algeria is a perfect example - (rsf) - (6)
                                             Point well taken, still - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                 Problem is Peace Bombs are... - (rsf) - (4)
                                                     Aberration.. hmmmm - (Ashton)
                                                     Marshall Plan an aberration? No, rather, a data point. - (marlowe) - (2)
                                                         Minor correction. - (a6l6e6x)
                                                         Heh.. Marlowe, yer on a roll :-\ufffd - (Ashton)
                                     You wouldn't call it imperialism. But others will. Loudly. - (marlowe) - (2)
                                         Not bad... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                             Leading by example? - (marlowe)
         What do you suggest? - (Another Scott) - (8)
             People and regimes don't change overnight - (bluke)
             Re: What do you suggest? - (neelk)
             Pakistan as an example - (bluke) - (5)
                 That doesn't answer the question. What should the US do? -NT - (Another Scott) - (4)
                     Carpet bomb all the Afghan settlements - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                         But the Afghan people aren't the problem. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                             No, they are part of the solution - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                 I have my doubts about that. Even so, give `em a try (nomsg -NT - (marlowe)

Just the facts, ma'am.
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