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New You guys should be using Modula-2. :-P
[link|http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au/cgi-bin/readinf.cmd?English/ftpserver.inf+text+45|Here]

[...]\n\nThat brings us to C and C++.  I've done a lot of C and C++ programming \nover the years, and it's left me with the feeling that those languages are \nmajor barriers to programming efficiency.  It takes me roughly twice the \ntime to get a C or C++ program working as it does to get a comparable \nModula-2 program working.  (On some projects I've kept logs to verify \nthis.)  The coding time is roughly the same, but there's a major \ndifference in debugging time.  Everyone I know writes buggy software in C \nand C++, and then they take forever trying to track down the bugs.  Some \ndevelopers give up, and sell the software with the bugs still included. \n\nThere are two main reasons why C software is so bug-prone. \n\n   1. Lack of type safety.  C is designed in such a way that the compiler \n      can't do much error checking, so the compiler gives no warnings for \n      things that, in a type-safe language, would be reported as errors at \n      compile time.  You don't see the errors until execution time, and \n      then you're left wondering what caused the error. \n\n   2. Poor support for modular programming.  You can break up a C program \n      into modules, but they're not truly independent of one another.  A \n      slight change in one module can have catastrophic effects on other \n      modules.  Once a project grows moderately large, you lose control of \n      your own code. \n \n\n C++ is a little better in these two respects, but C++ has problems of its \n own. The language designers tried to graft high-level features onto a \n low-level language, and the result is a mass of inconsistency.  A C++ \n reference manual is typically several times as thick as manuals for other \n programming languages, because every rule has a maze of exceptions and \n special cases. \n\n In addition, I've noticed that a lot of C++ programmers seem to have \n adopted the philosophy of "let's try this, and hope that it works".  The \n notion that you shouldn't write code that you don't understand seems to \n have become unfashionable.  Maybe that's the fault of the language (and \n its libraries), maybe not.  In any case, it's not the way I prefer to \n work. \n\n Ultimately, the reason I use Modula-2 is that it lets me get applications \n working quickly, it gives me control of large projects, and it doesn't \n force me to spend huge amounts of time on debugging.  I'm too old to \n enjoy the thrill of tracking down obscure bugs.  I like to get something \n working, and then be free to move on to other projects.


;-)

I know, I know...

Cheers,
Scott.
(who does very little programming, and none in Modula-2
New Re: You guys should be using Modula-2. :-P
He He ...

I used to do Modula-2 programming (mumble) years ago. Nice language, well thought out, good modular programming features. I actually was working on providing a standard library implementation (a BSI standard if my memory serves me). Implementing the standard library is an exercise in implementing OO polymorphism in a non-OO language ... one of the things that spurred me on to an OO language.

Is Modula-2 more productive than C++? ... perhaps, but that's not a spectacular claim these days.

More productive than Ruby (or Python) ... I really doubt it.
--
-- Jim Weirich jweirich@one.net [link|http://onestepback.org|http://onestepback.org]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct,
not tried it." -- Donald Knuth (in a memo to Peter van Emde Boas)
New I'd take issue with
There are two main reasons why C software is so bug-prone.

1. Lack of type safety. C is designed in such a way that the compiler
can't do much error checking, so the compiler gives no warnings for
things that, in a type-safe language, would be reported as errors at
compile time. You don't see the errors until execution time, and
then you're left wondering what caused the error.

2. Poor support for modular programming. You can break up a C program
into modules, but they're not truly independent of one another. A
slight change in one module can have catastrophic effects on other
modules. Once a project grows moderately large, you lose control of
your own code.


C++ is a little better in these two respects,


Actually, its worse.

And I don't buy compile time type safety.

Nor do I buy poor support for modular programming.

Its quite easy to write a *library* in C.

Much harder in C++ with its wacky linking rules and its inheritance derived hierarchical file dependencies.



"Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes.
Contestants in a suicidal race."
    - Synchronicity II - The Police
New I don't buy that.
A criticism of C and C++, yep. Endorsement of Modula-2, nah. Flawed conclusion. The correct conclusion is that C and C++ are not fast-development languages. I can code more rapidly in a number of languages other than in C/C++. Even writing classes in PHP, which has rather limited support for classes, really.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

New Isn't Pascal similar to Modula-2?
I prefer dynamicly-typed (or type-free) languages anyhow. There is not much to C/C++ to brag about except for machine speed and machine portability. C is the "modern assembler".
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Re: Isn't Pascal similar to Modula-2?
It was written by the same guy, Niklaus Wirth.

[link|http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/Modula_2.html| A link ]
New Correction: that IS Peter Moylan's work.
He's got a very good mail server and ftp server that he writes for OS/2. I've been using his software for years... good stuff.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Expand Edited by jake123 May 28, 2003, 04:34:25 PM EDT
New Yup. Peter's a really good guy.
He's been supporting OS/2 for a very long time and I've appreciated his work. His tuning tips and recommended software links were quite useful when I was new to OS/2.

His ftpd is very well done. I used it to get about 4 GB off my 486 that I've never backed up. :-) I'll have to send in the registration fee.

BTW, my copy of eCS 1.1 Entry arrived from Mensys today. I have no idea when I'll be able to try installing it, but I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for all of your work on it, Jack.

Cheers,
Scott.
     You guys should be using Modula-2. :-P - (Another Scott) - (7)
         Re: You guys should be using Modula-2. :-P - (JimWeirich)
         I'd take issue with - (tuberculosis)
         I don't buy that. - (static)
         Isn't Pascal similar to Modula-2? - (tablizer) - (1)
             Re: Isn't Pascal similar to Modula-2? - (Simon_Jester)
         Correction: that IS Peter Moylan's work. - (jake123) - (1)
             Yup. Peter's a really good guy. - (Another Scott)

I'm reconciled to the existence of idiots in the world, but I'm bitterly resentful of whoever it was who first thought to make computer technology available to them.
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