Debian downgrade Q

5/8/03 11:33:56 AM

By default dpkg allows for downgrades.

dpkg -i thepackage should have worked.

So you did the right thing!

[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----\nVersion: 3.12+\nGAT d+ s+:++ a C++++ UBHLO++++ P+ L+++ E---/E---- W+++ N+ o--\nK--- w--- O+ M+ V-- PS-- PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++\nD++ Q2+++ Q3A+++ UT+++ UT2K3+++ G e* h--- r+++ z+++*\n------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post #100,914

5/8/03 12:04:47 PM

The Answer: SuSE 8.2!

-drl

Post #100,921

by admin

5/8/03 12:15:05 PM

That *would* be a downgrade...

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #100,933

5/8/03 2:01:15 PM

Have you seen it?

It's a vast improvement over 8.0 in terms of YaST, which keeps getting better - particularly the ncurses text interface.

-drl

Post #100,937

by admin

5/8/03 2:11:31 PM

So?

A vast improvement would still leave it behind apt.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #100,938

5/8/03 2:18:51 PM

It is pretty sweet,

Bitch to get started with...

but as an example...

Decided to rip through the newsgroups last night...but I had no newsreader installed...darn...

apt-get install pan

(identified 6 libraries that were not installed that it also needed...got them too...not something your garden variety rpm manager would handle)

then submit for my password..which I had forgotten...mail sent...opened...and by that time I had pan in my menu. Start program...configure server...off we go.

Total time from desire to beginning download...maybe 5 minutes.

Yeah yeak Karsten...go ahead and gloat.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #100,948

by admin

5/8/03 3:10:37 PM

re: hard to get started

I cheated.

I had a working system already, and did a [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DebianChrootInstall|DebianChrootInstall]. Easy peasy, for the most part.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #100,950

5/8/03 3:20:07 PM

I think...

...I'm goint to try that on the Dell laptop. Already has Mandrake running.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #100,954

by admin

5/8/03 3:42:05 PM

This was from SuSE 7.2

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #100,953

5/8/03 3:35:13 PM

Re: It is pretty sweet,

Yast2 -> Install Software -> Search (slrn) -> checkbox -> Launch -> Insert CD 3 -> Writing config -> done.

Less than 1 minute. Of course KDE3 has a beautiful newsreader so I wasted another minute deleting slrn.

BTW who recommends what text-based newsreader?

-drl

Post #100,955

by admin

5/8/03 3:43:06 PM

Woo, insert CD.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #100,967

by cwbrenn

5/8/03 4:10:58 PM

Should we just rename this forum

to "Debian" and be done with it?

Sheesh. When presented with a lack of options, Linux users really *do* eat their own. :)

"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young

Post #100,970

by admin

5/8/03 4:16:17 PM

Missing the point.

General Linux questions and discussion.

However, when presented with distro advocacy (notice who started this particular subthread) people will respond.

This is no different than discussing Win 95 vs. Win 2000 in the Windows forum. People invariably say, "2000 is better"... but we aren't renaming that forum "The Windows 2K Forum". ;-)

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #101,036

by cwbrenn

5/9/03 8:27:40 AM

5/9/03 8:30:39 AM

I'm not missing the point...

You're missing the SMILEY. :P

*snicker*

I just thought it was kinda funny, is all.

"That's when Johnny grabbed a chair..."

Edited to add, after looking at my original post, it might have looked more the way I intended if I had taken out the word "sheesh".

"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young

Edited by cwbrenn May 9, 2003, 08:30:39 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #101,041

by admin

5/9/03 9:41:09 AM

Well, what you could do...

... is write in a brawl at Ubersoft... ;-)

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #101,042

by cwbrenn

5/9/03 9:46:50 AM

Funny you should say that...

Check out this:

[link|http://www.ubersoft.net/kpanic/d/20030409.html|http://www.ubersoft....c/d/20030409.html]

and the one that follows. :)

"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young

Post #101,055

by admin

5/9/03 10:23:14 AM

Heh heh heh...

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #100,978

5/8/03 4:38:09 PM

Not to worry, these Doobians are mostly harmless :)

-drl

Post #101,013

5/8/03 10:35:54 PM

I'm still in decision mode...

...this is my first foray into Debian.

so far my opinion is apt is easier than rpm and that the debian standard install is painful.

I believe that is all I have said so far.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #100,976

5/8/03 4:37:07 PM

Re: Woo, insert CD.

Well, of course you can divert the install medium to Neptune, if you can ping ftp.suse.np ...

-drl

Post #100,958

5/8/03 3:52:54 PM

As long as you have them handy...

...I suppose so.

And as long as they're current.

No need to fuss about where those blasted disks ran off too for me though.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #100,979

5/8/03 4:39:28 PM

Re: As long as you have them handy...

Then just point the install source to ftp.leo.org/mumble/mumble...

-drl

Post #100,984

5/8/03 4:52:43 PM

It's as simple as this:

From command line, which nearly EVERY *NIX person has open at any time:
apt-get install slrn

It picks up ALL of the dependancies and asks if it is okay to do them as well as your chosen, and answer "Y"... Done.

Of course since I don't do Newsgroups much any more I don't have em. Henceforth:
apt-get remove slrn if you want to keep the config files.
apt-get remove --purge slrn if you don't want to keep the config files.

Can Yast2 upgrade awhole ditribution without upgrading a specific package like fer instance: "Postgresql"

and still keep the machine services running while doing it?

[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----\nVersion: 3.12+\nGAT d+ s+:++ a C++++ UBHLO++++ P+ L+++ E---/E---- W+++ N+ o--\nK--- w--- O+ M+ V-- PS-- PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++\nD++ Q2+++ Q3A+++ UT+++ UT2K3+++ G e* h--- r+++ z+++*\n------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post #101,077

5/9/03 11:49:00 AM

Here, I'll do it

I need it anyway so here goes...

Start YaST..Install or Remove Software..

Autochecks dependencies - OK.

Search postgres..

Ok, I have only the libraries and the qt3 interface installed.

Select all the various packages and the server...

Install from DVD..

All OK - go to runlevel properties - there's postgres, I want it to start in 2,3,5 - done - start now - success.

YaST has a really fine GUI for managing packages. The install source picker is very nice. I redirect the server to the DVD drive on my laptop so I don't have to fumble with CDs. Or, I can go to a SuSE mirror and update - come to think of it, let's checks for updates to the new things I've installed now...(it will auto-happen at 2 AM but why wait?)

Getting patch information...

1 patch installed (new English admin guide).

Done. Total time - about 6 minutes.

-drl

Post #101,083

by Yendor

5/9/03 12:16:16 PM

Here, I'll help.

Hmmm, ok. I just Debianized my desktop machine from Red Hat earlier this week. Haven't gotten around to installing PostgreSQL yet.

[root@halfadozen ~]$ ssh 192.168.0.3 The authenticity of host '192.168.0.3 (192.168.0.3)' can't be established. RSA key fingerprint is 06:3d:2f:d4:ed:a9:a4:7a:c7:79:c2:3f:6a:28:55:23. Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes Warning: Permanently added '192.168.0.3' (RSA) to the list of known hosts. root@192.168.0.3's password: Linux sixofone 2.4.20-1-686 #1 Sat Mar 22 13:16:21 EST 2003 i686 unknown unknown GNU/Linux The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software; the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright. Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by applicable law. Last login: Wed May 7 12:17:39 2003 from 192.168.0.6

OK, so I'm logged into my desktop now from my laptop.

sixofone:~# apt-get install postgres Reading Package Lists... Done Building Dependency Tree... Done E: Couldn't find package postgres

Shucks. I forgot the name of the package. What is it again?

sixofone:~# apt-cache search postgres | grep postgres cl-pg - Common Lisp library that provides a socket level postgresql interface cl-sql-postgresql - CLSQL database backend, PostgreSQL cl-sql-postgresql-socket - CLSQL database backend, PostgreSQL cl-uncommonsql-postgresql - UncommonSQL database backend, PostgreSQL courier-authpostgresql - PostgreSQL Authentication for Courier Mail Server Suitegda-postgres - GDA backend server for PostgreSQL gda2-postgres - PostgreSQL backend plugin for GNU Data Access library for GNOME2libapache-mod-acct-pgsql - Accounting module for Apache, postgresql version liblogtrend-databaseaccess-perl - Perl module for logtrend postgresql database access libpgeasy - Simplified interface library for postgresql libpgeasy-dev - Simplified interface library for postgresql - development files libpqpp - C++ library to connect to postgresql libpqpp-dev - C++ library to connect to postgresql mnogosearch-mysql - A full-featured web search engine (postgresql) mnogosearch-pgsql - A full-featured web search engine (postgresql) odbc-postgresql - ODBC support for PostgreSQL perdition-postgresql - Library to allow perdition to access PostgreSQL based popmaps postgresql - Object-relational SQL database, descended from POSTGRES postgresql-client - Front-end programs for PostgreSQL postgresql-contrib - Additional facilities for PostgreSQL postgresql-dev - Header files for libpq (postgresql library) postgresql-doc - Documentation for the PostgreSQL database postgresql-plr - Procedural Language interface between PostgreSQL and R sqlrelay-postgresql - SQL Relay PostgreSQL connection daemon. webmin-postgresql - postgresql control module for webmin gtksql - GTK front end to the postgresql database libgtrans-postgresql-6-5-3 - PostgreSQL plugin for libgtrans-ifase

Ah! There it is! postgresql

sixofone:~# apt-get install postgresql Reading Package Lists... Done Building Dependency Tree... Done The following extra packages will be installed: courier-authdaemon courier-base courier-mta mailx postgresql-client Suggested packages: postgresql-dev pgdocs The following NEW packages will be installed: courier-authdaemon courier-base courier-mta mailx postgresql postgresql-client 0 packages upgraded, 6 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 4184kB of archives. After unpacking 11.2MB of additional disk space will be used. Do you want to continue? [Y/n] Get:1 [link|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org] unstable/main courier-base 0.42.0-5 [149kB] Get:2 [link|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org] unstable/main courier-authdaemon 0.42.0-5 [46.6kB] Get:3 [link|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org] unstable/main courier-mta 0.42.0-5 [530kB] Get:4 [link|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org] unstable/main mailx 1:8.1.2-0.20020411cvs-5 [121kB] Get:5 [link|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org] unstable/main postgresql-client 7.3.2r1-5 [368kB] Get:6 [link|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org|ftp://ftp.us.debian.org] unstable/main postgresql 7.3.2r1-5 [2970kB] Fetched 4184kB in 25s (161kB/s) Preconfiguring packages ... Selecting previously deselected package courier-base. (Reading database ... 71474 files and directories currently installed.) Unpacking courier-base (from .../courier-base_0.42.0-5_i386.deb) ... Selecting previously deselected package courier-authdaemon. Unpacking courier-authdaemon (from .../courier-authdaemon_0.42.0-5_i386.deb) ...Selecting previously deselected package courier-mta. Unpacking courier-mta (from .../courier-mta_0.42.0-5_i386.deb) ... Selecting previously deselected package mailx. Unpacking mailx (from .../mailx_1%3a8.1.2-0.20020411cvs-5_i386.deb) ... Selecting previously deselected package postgresql-client. Unpacking postgresql-client (from .../postgresql-client_7.3.2r1-5_i386.deb) ... cp: cannot stat `/etc/postgresql/pg_hba.conf': No such file or directory cp: cannot stat `/etc/postgresql/pg_hba.conf': No such file or directory cp: cannot stat `/etc/postgresql/postgresql.conf': No such file or directory Could not save old binaries Selecting previously deselected package postgresql. Unpacking postgresql (from .../postgresql_7.3.2r1-5_i386.deb) ... Although you have no existing database files in the standard locations, you have a postgresql directory at /usr/lib/postgresql To protect executables that you may need for dumping an older database, they are being moved to /var/lib/postgres/dumpall/unknown 450 Service temporarily unavailable. root: invalid address. Can't send mail: sendmail process failed with error code 75 cp: cannot stat `/etc/postgresql/pg_hba.conf': No such file or directory cp: cannot stat `/etc/postgresql/pg_hba.conf': No such file or directory cp: cannot stat `/etc/postgresql/postgresql.conf': No such file or directory Could not save old binaries Setting up courier-base (0.42.0-5) ... Setting up courier-authdaemon (0.42.0-5) ... Starting Courier authdaemon: done. Setting up courier-mta (0.42.0-5) ... Starting Courier mail server: done. Starting Courier mail filter: done. Starting Courier SMTP server: done. Setting up mailx (8.1.2-0.20020411cvs-5) ... Setting up postgresql-client (7.3.2r1-5) ... Setting up postgresql (7.3.2r1-5) ... The files belonging to this database system will be owned by user "postgres". This user must also own the server process. The database cluster will be initialized with locale C. Fixing permissions on existing directory /var/lib/postgres/data... ok creating directory /var/lib/postgres/data/base... ok creating directory /var/lib/postgres/data/global... ok creating directory /var/lib/postgres/data/pg_xlog... ok creating directory /var/lib/postgres/data/pg_clog... ok creating template1 database in /var/lib/postgres/data/base/1... ok creating configuration files... ok initializing pg_shadow... ok enabling unlimited row size for system tables... ok initializing pg_depend... ok creating system views... ok loading pg_description... ok creating conversions... ok setting privileges on built-in objects... ok vacuuming database template1... ok copying template1 to template0... ok Success. You can now start the database server using: /usr/lib/postgresql/bin/postmaster -D /var/lib/postgres/data or /usr/lib/postgresql/bin/pg_ctl -D /var/lib/postgres/data -l logfile start localepurge: Disk space freed in /usr/share/locale: 1212K

Total time to perform this entire thing, from beginning to end: about 1:30. I didn't have to insert CD's, DVD's, or anything.

Do I expect this to convince you of anything? No, not really. But still, the point is, this was faster and, IMHO, easier. No waiting for a GUI to start, which IME is usually at least 5 seconds. In the case of OpenOffice, it's more like 10-15.

-YendorMike

[link|http://www.hope-ride.org/|http://www.hope-ride.org/]

Post #101,087

by Another Scott

5/9/03 12:27:07 PM

Advantage: Yendor. Well done!

Post #101,187

5/10/03 12:50:18 AM

5/10/03 12:51:43 AM

Advantage, Me

I've been doing UNIX since before he was capable of making a fist.

Yendor-Rodney whatever is a pissy man. He pisses me off with his pissiness.

He's also a typical sour nasty Chicagoan.

-drl

Edited by deSitter May 10, 2003, 12:51:43 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #101,194

5/10/03 2:26:39 AM

So what?

"I am old UNIX Man! Hear me roar!"

I got news.

UNIX is a legacy operating system, like Windows.

Linux just happens to look a lot like it.

And SuSE is certainly something you SHOULDN'T be installing, because of its evil non-American communist roots. Isn't Germany on the Axis of Evil?

Post #101,203

by Another Scott

5/10/03 8:13:09 AM

Um, non sequitur.

1) apt-get was faster than installing from the DVD.
2) apt-get can be done from the command line or script.
3) apt-get resolved all dependencies automatically (YaST was similar - but not better).
4) apt-get installs the latest version if you want it (YaST was similar - but not better).

How is it that YaST was better? Because you have a better hat?

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #101,224

5/10/03 7:14:42 PM

Re: Um, non sequitur.

1) apt-get was faster than installing from the DVD.

So? I'm slow.

2) apt-get can be done from the command line or script.

So can YaST2.

3) apt-get resolved all dependencies automatically (YaST was similar - but not better).

It's a wash.

4) apt-get installs the latest version if you want it (YaST was similar - but not better).

It's a wash.

How is it that YaST was better? Because you have a better hat?

Here's how - SuSE can make fucking MONEY on Linux, and thus offer REAL COMPETITION to Micros~7, as opposed to a lot of nerds fucking around with a nerd toy.

I am HAPPY to supply them with cash, because they do an outstanding job.

-drl

Post #101,233

by Another Scott

5/10/03 7:44:46 PM

http://www.debian.org/donations - Pay for Debian too...

if you want. Really. :-/ Or buy a copy of Libranet 2.8 - a Debian-based "commercial" Linux distribution.

It's the same thing. Debian and SuSE are both Linux.

Neither one of them, on their own, can "offer REAL COMPETITION to Micros~7". It's Linux as a whole that does that.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #101,234

5/10/03 7:50:40 PM

Wrong

This is a naive, nerd-o-centric position. Competition means profitable business and working capital. Of COURSE it's still Linux - that's why I can at least tolerate the excesses of the Doobians.

-drl

Post #101,267

by imric

5/11/03 6:28:12 AM

Umm.

Competition means profitable business and working capital.

No. Anything that takes marketshare competes. There is no price-point, on-hand capital, or organizational strictures involved in competition.

If Debian didn't compete, why would you care? Suse, Redhat, Windows, SCO et al. would be in no danger.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Post #101,299

5/11/03 3:32:11 PM

Re: Umm.

There is no market for Debian. Debbie and Ian are not selling anything. SuSE OTOH is selling system integration, Linux expertise, and circular bandwidth - the Debian people may be every bit as good or better than the SuSE people, but they aren't doing it for money or even out of any hope of money. It's being done as an exercise, or a game, or a political statement - one can think of lots of reasons (some of them even, good ones!) but BUSINESS is not one of them.

To compete with an oppressive BUSINESS, you need to trump it with a better BUSINESS.

-drl

Post #101,305

5/11/03 4:38:36 PM

Rubbish.

What about Apache? This product without a BUSINESS seems to be doing a fine job of beating the hell out of everything else, in particular IIS, which is produced by a BUSINESS.

When every damn Linux installation but yours is Debian or Debian-based, will you then concede that Debian doesn't have to be a BUSINESS to beat the living crap out of every other distribution?

Post #101,311

by kmself

5/11/03 5:18:56 PM

What Ian sells

Is called [link|http://progeny.com/|Progeny]. Ian's [link|http://progeny.com/about/team.html|chairman and CTO].

\r\n\r\n

White paper describing [link|http://progeny.com/PlatformServicesWP_031703.pdf|Debian as a platform services foundation]. Echoed in the [link|http://progeny.com/about/index.html|about Progeny] page:

\r\n\r\n

\r\n[W]hat the marketplace really needed (and what we were uniquely qualified to provide) was a superior, cost-effective alternative for building and maintaining a customized Linux platform\ufffdfocused not around a particular distribution, but on Linux as a whole.\r\n

Post #101,314

5/11/03 5:27:35 PM

UNIX is not "componentized"

Would I trust anyone who used such a stupid word? Would I trust anyone so stupid as to think UNIX can be "componentized"? What the hell is that? Word salad!

You Doobians are every bit as deluded and irrational as Windows doobs were.

I love the "shades of SCO/3Com/YourFuckedCompanyHere" web design - not.

-drl

Post #101,318

5/11/03 5:49:34 PM

Still sore cuz you can't install it?

Post #101,323

5/11/03 6:04:59 PM

5/11/03 6:06:12 PM

Sheesh

Can't you do better than that? I hate the evil thing - like a cheap Chinese radio or some Russian counterfeit copy of a nice pen, it's offensive to the eye and mind.

Just one look is all it took. It's a POS slackertoy like GNU info, emacs, tetex, netscape, mozilla, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ETC.!

I have ACTUAL WORK to do.

-drl

Edited by deSitter May 11, 2003, 06:06:12 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #101,355

by admin

5/11/03 9:39:05 PM

ROFL

I'll take your sorry ass on with Emacs and Mozilla any day of the week.

They're what I use for REAL WORK every day.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #101,374

5/12/03 3:06:42 AM

TeTeX?

Ah, that's right. You're the one who claims that there's "no good equation editors" on UNIX, and that LaTeX is "weird".

Keep on with the meds, boi.

Post #101,325

by kmself

5/11/03 6:09:59 PM

Re: UNIX is not "componentized"

Blah blah blah blah dicksize blah blah.

\r\n\r\n

Unix is componentized (though I prefer the term "modularized"). Debian makes managing the compenents far more tenable. Progeny's business is selling custom-tailored Linux systems for enterprise clients. While the claim is of distribution independence, Debian is very much the base, for good reason. It's the same reasoning that's behind the various bootable distros (LNX-BBC, Knoppix, Demo-Linux, etc.) basing their packages from Debian. Less crap to deal with, greatly facilitated effort.

\r\n\r\n

I'm still waiting for Danny Ross Lunsford's Cooking with Shit and Crow for Fun and Frothing. Last I checked, you're the one who's talking shit on Debian without having tried it. And never mind me. Check with... Greg, Peter, Scott, Bill (still on the cusp, but I think he'll make it), Drew, Ben, etc., etc., etc.... Each of whom started elsewhere, tried Debian, and realized the advantages. There was some armtwisting to get them to try it, but the proof's in the pudding.

\r\n\r\n

And we'll note the usual cogent and relevant arguments. Too much river water of late, Ross?

Post #101,340

5/11/03 7:04:52 PM

Re: UNIX is not "componentized"

I tried enough of it to know that I'll never be as cool as you guys :) I can't tell you how disgusted I was by the entire thing. If you're that INTO low-level bullshit and have the time, why not do BSD?

Some things can't be boiled down to a formula. Everything I've learned over the years tells me Debian sucks, and SuSE doesn't. You know that feel you get when you drive a well-engineered car? Debian is a set of diagrams of the car in some random order. SuSE is the car.

And to stress the point, by supporting SuSE, I'm attacking Microsoft. By supporting Debian, you're wasting your own time while they suck up more and more of the world. Guess what - Windows is born-again hard (about fucking time after 15 years) - Windows XP keeps the good core of NT and fixes its many performance problems - but now that they have a Windows worth owning, they will just stick it to everyone three times as hard to protect it. The only way to combat Windows XP is to make something is available and profitable that is just as easy to install, just as stable, and just as functional. That will NEVER happen with Debian, because there is no profit in it. By supporting SuSE there is a remote chance that Windows will have a worthy competitor, and a financially healthy one.

So, I froth because

1) I can't STAND mob political behavior

2) Debian pegged my trusted "dubiousity" meter

3) I want MS and vendor UNIX to have a realistic competitor.

-drl

Post #101,344

by kmself

5/11/03 7:32:44 PM

/kmself hands DRL

...a large barrel of vaseline.

\r\n\r\n

Stroke and bore, Ross.

Post #101,356

by admin

5/11/03 9:45:51 PM

I moved FROM SuSE TO Debian, nimrod.

And not for political reasons. SuSE ate itself, and I didn't have the time to fuck around with fixing a broken RPM installation. I've spent ZERO time maintaining my Debian box since I set it up. I use it AT WORK day in and day out. SuSE was the distro that sucked time like a two-bit whore, not Debian.

That's the raw, fucking truth, Ross. Believe it or not (you obviously don't), but at least get over yourself.

"Tried enough of it to know." Yeah, horseshit. I'll bet you spent a whole prejuidiced 2 hours with it, didn't you.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #101,408

by drewk

5/12/03 8:27:49 AM

Bwaaaaahahahaha

"Debbie and Ian aren't selling anything."

"Oh yeah?"

Oh that's just priceless.

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #101,089

by admin

5/9/03 12:31:45 PM

Lame example, too.

Try doing 'apt-get install gnome-pim' on a system that doesn't have X installed yet. :-D

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #101,096

5/9/03 2:09:36 PM

I have a machine that will have ONLY baseconfig.

And nothing else as of tonight. Will have a local MTA and forwarding to my collector. So I don't get problems.

apt-get install evolution

Well see how well that works and I'll capture it all using script (/usr/bin/script which is a part of bsdutils).

That's all :)

[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----\nVersion: 3.12+\nGAT d+ s+:++ a C++++ UBHLO++++ P+ L+++ E---/E---- W+++ N+ o--\nK--- w--- O+ M+ V-- PS-- PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++\nD++ Q2+++ Q3A+++ UT+++ UT2K3+++ G e* h--- r+++ z+++*\n------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post #101,100

by admin

5/9/03 2:15:31 PM

Heheheh.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #101,135

by kmself

5/9/03 5:07:52 PM

Oh Lord! What have I created?

And is it not a wonderous thing!

Post #101,140

by admin

5/9/03 5:11:04 PM

Er... "wonderous"...?

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #101,176

5/9/03 10:54:13 PM

Didna get to it. Fun-

eral dealings. Probably won;t get to play around before Sunday Evening.

BUT, I WILL do it!

[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----\nVersion: 3.12+\nGAT d+ s+:++ a C++++ UBHLO++++ P+ L+++ E---/E---- W+++ N+ o--\nK--- w--- O+ M+ V-- PS-- PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++\nD++ Q2+++ Q3A+++ UT+++ UT2K3+++ G e* h--- r+++ z+++*\n------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post #101,188

5/10/03 12:52:20 AM

Kiss my ass

-drl

Post #101,227

by altmann

5/10/03 7:21:50 PM

Is it just me ...

... or did installing a DB server also appear to install a mail server in there somewhere? Also, there were a number of error messages. Not too hard to figure out why they happened, but still.

--
Chris Altmann

Post #101,235

5/10/03 8:56:19 PM

Nope... it isn't just you...

An MTA is required to deliver mail for maintenance and notices of porblems and such for postmaster to work properly.

Since Courier is/was the first one in the "LIST" of MTAs it got the bonus job of being default. Courier is also very simple and very "umm secure"... light and not much known in the way of exploits, but the way it is setup by default (just hitting enter) it acts as a local delivery only with forwarding to a smarthost without a "smarthost" to send to for non-local mail.

So, no you didn't just see it. Typically most Database machines have some sort of MTA already installed as part of the prep work for the DB install. Since Mike handen't setup an MTA, it did it.

Also, the question I really asked Ross was (but not in these verbose, layed out with a specific ruleset, directions. Whihc I had hoped I didn't NEED to do):

Let's say you HAVE to stay on the version of Postgresql you have installed now, the version you have installed now has one feature your WHOLE PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT depends on and the newer versions dropped this feature for a DIFFERENT one to do the function differently. BUT, being told from higher up (IOW the PHBs) you "need" to update your system (for whatever reason) to the Latest greatest version of said distribution. Can you using the automagic system tools completely upgrade the system from one major release to another without upgrading to a newer version of Postgresql, all whilst keeping the system running and live DOING it's function?

Summary:
1. Postgresql version MUST not change, nor can the build be differently compiled or built.
2. The CEO want's to brag and demands the OS be updated to latest "FOO" version of "BAR" distribution.
3. Use ONLY the "system package management tools" GUI or otherwise (YaST == SuSE, RPM == RedHat/Mandrake, APT/DPKG == Debian, emerge == Gentoo, etc...)
4. Keep the system up and running PERFORMING it's service or function while being updated
5. Do this without breaking your system.
6. Get it done in a reasonable fashion.
7. Manage the problem's as they occur inline with the upgrade without a break in the upgrade, therby not possibly having an UNUSEABLE/UNBOOTABLE system in the process.
8. Recover from a critical/fatal issue, requiring a break in the upgrade to fix the issue and continue from where you were
9. Go home at a decent time.

Please elucidate on this Ross or anyone else. Dweebian need not respond... unless they wanna.

[link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

THEY ARE WATCHING YOU.
The time has come for you to take the last step.
You must love THEM.
It is not enough to obey THEM.
You must love THEM.

PEACE BEGETS WAR, SLAVERY IS FREEDOM, STRENGTH IN IGNORANCE.

Post #101,261

5/11/03 2:29:23 AM

Re: Nope... it isn't just you...

1) Thanks for the dig - I can't read your mind.

2) Any system that has detailed dependency requirements such as you listed will need "hand" administration, in some form. From working very closely with SuSE 6,7, and 8, I can tell you that it is tightly delivered - so system dependencies are extremely well-handled. This I think is the Linux incarnation of good German engineering practice.

Now, for your issues:

1. Postgresql version MUST not change, nor can the build be differently compiled or built.

You pause the update to manually deselect anything that would break the DB. If something else you are trying to install *requires* a new version of the DB, the installer will inform you and you will have the choice of living without that, or forcing the install of it (taking chances). The key point here is the skill of the SuSE staff at identifying dependencies. I've seen numberless tweaks that SuSE makes of some or another package - in good GPL form - in order that it can live under YaST and its modules.

2. The CEO want's to brag and demands the OS be updated to latest "FOO" version of "BAR" distribution.

If you know that will break something, tell him, and if he insists, show him you weren't kidding.

3. Use ONLY the "system package management tools" GUI or otherwise (YaST == SuSE, RPM == RedHat/Mandrake, APT/DPKG == Debian, emerge == Gentoo, etc...)

4. Keep the system up and running PERFORMING it's service or function while being updated

I expect massive uptime on my x225. I'm sure I'll be tweaking it. I don't forsee big issues.

5. Do this without breaking your system.

I've had issues with hardware on Linux, but I've never had issues with SuSE administration. It started out good and just gets better, and is CONSISTENT across big version changes (at least since v.6).

6. Get it done in a reasonable fashion.

7. Manage the problem's as they occur inline with the upgrade without a break in the upgrade, therby not possibly having an UNUSEABLE/UNBOOTABLE system in the process.

The only times I ever destroyed a system like that were a) forgetting to run LILO b) deleting the wrong kernel image after an upgrade - whatever distribution, you should protect yourself against stupidity (like deleting bash.bashrc, which I did today).

8. Recover from a critical/fatal issue, requiring a break in the upgrade to fix the issue and continue from where you were

SuSE simply does not break during installs, and you can do a "manual" install where every action is run past you. But, it's always possible to screw something up, right? All I can say is, I've used admin tools on AIX, Sun, HP, and Digital, and even going back to Apollos and CRDS, and SuSE has the best administrative interface of all of them.

9. Go home at a decent time.

One hopes.

-drl

Post #101,301

5/11/03 3:58:00 PM

Points completely missed again Ross.

Answer the questions. Not what your feeling is.

I asked specific questions, Do you need me to expanded the detail to the point of childishness? If you could just ANSWER those questions, it'd be grand.

Unless you can't.

And we are Dwebians, Snobbians, Deb-O-Snobs for a reason. That, which you'll never quite understand. Mainly due to your slant of US vs. THEM. Debian goes to the CORE of what OSS really means. It goes so far as to HELP those projects and packages associated to it's Linux flavor as to comform to a set of guidelines. RPM is a similar set, as to HOW to package, but Debian goes a bit further, stating not only HOW to package but HOW that package is submitted and HOW and WHERE the files associated with that package needs to install to and how it's to be managed. also, the quality Control that packages go through. Options in something like Postgreql, are usually packaged seperately as they are options. They are compiled at the same time and packaged at the same time, but made seperate from the Primary.

[link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

Post #100,981

by kmself

5/8/03 4:43:32 PM

Since you insist

*gloat*

Post #100,927