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New XML "standards" questions...
I'm lookin' through the Python libs, trying to figure out where to go now...

Microsoft is pushing XML schemas as the way to validate XML documents. Is this another one of Microsoft's "embrace, extend, exterminate" initiatives? What's the "proper" alternative?

Thanks,
Thane
After 9/11, Bush made two statements:
1. "Terrorists hate America because America is a land of freedom and opportunity."
2. "We intend to attack the root causes of terrorism."

Sounds like everything is going according to plan.
New DTD vs. Schemas
DTDs are simpler, but don't have as many validation capabilities. Basically, it's "this element is here in this order with these attributes".

Schemas, the later of the two validation methods, are quite a bit more complex, but you can define data types.

Schemas are not MS-centric.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Also schemas are newer
and thus more cool. (According to the newer is better theory of software).

OTOH, take a gander at the defined types for schema and let me know at what point your head explodes. The complexity level is astonishing for what you get.

[link|http://www.w3.org/XML/Schema|http://www.w3.org/XML/Schema]

Its shit like this that convinces me that XML is a stupid fucking idea being pushed by idiot cocktail party architects on big company expense accounts.

Also - I've never seen either a schema or dtd developed on its own - typically a sample xml document is produced, then run through a tool that derives a dtd or schema from the sample - then maybe you tweak it.



"Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes.
Contestants in a suicidal race."
    - Synchronicity II - The Police
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:37:54 AM EDT
New Same here.
I write DTDs from sample XML.

I haven't quite had to deal with creating a schema yet (read this: avoiding it) because of the complexity.

It looks about as much fun as XSL/XSLT.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New God, I love it here.
Its shit like this that convinces me that XML is a stupid fucking idea being pushed by idiot cocktail party architects on big company expense accounts.

My sentiments X-fscking-actly. I was in an interview today for a "real job" (been working on my own for the past 3 years). During the interview one of the folks asked me about .Net and XML. I told them, "Well, I think the entire IT industry is in a funk. To be sure over the past 8-10 years everyone has jumped on the Microsoft bandwagon and immediately embraced anything Microsoft proposed as "new and better". My opinion is that up until about 1998 that was not really a stupid thing to do. Microsoft did not really come up with any new ideas during that period. They were, during that timeframe, to the IT industry what Datsun/Toyota/Honda was to the automotive industry in the 1970's and 1980's: they could not come up with a new idea, but they were very good at recognizing good ideas and improving upon them, at least from the user's perspective. But then something terrible happened in the IT industry: Microsoft became a monopoly by systematically putting every other PC based company out of business. The "really good new ideas" vanished. My read of the "state of the art" right now is that both the Sun ONE initiative and the Microsoft .Net initiative are of the same ilk. Both are put forward because there are really no new worlds left to conquer (or at least neither company is capable of coming up with any really beneficial "new way" to use computer technology). These initiatives are merely designed to convince businesses to spend more money on IT technology. That can be said of many so-called innovations in IT technology. The difference is that this time, neither Sun ONE nor MS .Net truly provides any advantage for most businesses. XML is not the answer, XML is the question."
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New XML promises "paint by number" development in thr eyes
XML has to be the most hyped non-Turing-complete language. But, tips for bullshitting with it at interviews would still be welcome. Something better than my current "I saved a baby from a burning building using XML" lie. Plus, SCGUI is XML :-)
________________
oop.ismad.com
New So how'd they respond?
===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
New Agreed.
I wouldn't have waxed on like that had they not be a client of mine for about three years ;-)
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New So, did you get the job...
...or did the interviewer prove to be a panacea-du-jour type who politely but firmly showed you the door?
jb4
"We continue to live in a world where all our know-how is locked into binary files in an unknown format. If our documents are our corporate memory, Microsoft still has us all condemned to Alzheimer's."
Simon Phipps, SUN Microsystems
New Got offer on Friday.
Am mulling it over. I will probably rejoin the proletariat (actually, the money I'd make is slightly more, plus bene's and vacation - the usual stuff ;-)
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New Shouldn't that be "X-fscking-zactly"?
gd&rfc
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Re: Also schemas are newer
You should have seen the monster pig boy application I tended for Mastercard - an online bill paying app written by bad programmers all in Java. It was the biggest POS I've ever seen in corporate computing. Nothing on this earth could possibly require that much memory. And as you said, the XML looked like it had been auto-generated. As usual, you're right.
-drl
     XML "standards" questions... - (inthane-chan) - (11)
         DTD vs. Schemas - (admin) - (10)
             Also schemas are newer - (tuberculosis) - (9)
                 Same here. - (admin)
                 God, I love it here. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                     XML promises "paint by number" development in thr eyes - (tablizer)
                     So how'd they respond? -NT - (drewk) - (1)
                         Agreed. - (mmoffitt)
                     So, did you get the job... - (jb4) - (1)
                         Got offer on Friday. - (mmoffitt)
                     Shouldn't that be "X-fscking-zactly"? - (jake123)
                 Re: Also schemas are newer - (deSitter)

Considering that all you're risking is the $15 co-payment, there's no harm in giving him a shot at it.
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